Do theatre squares need an additional adjacency bonus?

Well alot of the amenity stuff is unlocked in the Civic tree:
  • Entertainment districts and buildings for them.
  • National parks.
  • Policy cards and governments sometimes give amenties.
  • Same with Governors.
  • Ski resorts.
  • Some unique improvements that give amenities are unlocked in civic tree.
  • Probably other stuff I have missed.

Let's face it, in a real game of Civ 6, luxuries are going to constitute 95% of your amenities. Most of these things you list won't really matter until the late game. And how do you access luxuries? Through techs, and hammers (building workers). And this is looking at these things as if amenities were a really valuable currency, and not just an afterthought.
 
I don't think Theatre Squares need more adjacency boni, I think Campuses seem less. Frankly it is ridiculous that you can get free Science just by putting your campus next to a mountain without even having to have a citizen to work the campus! Apparently the mountain itself writes a thesis or something... Civ VI is too keen on giving free yields like that. Adjacency boni should be something like "+10% to each Citizen working this district for each adjacent mountain", not straight up "Have 4 Science just for putting a Library in an area of high altitude".
 
If you want to be unnecessarily nitpicky, feel free.
No, I am not. I wrote a large blurb explaining why it is not 95% then just removed it because basically there is no rationalisation in your comment. Especially with Coliseum .
You did not need 95% and you have not gone through the logic of the classic republic legacy card I slot more than 50% of the time or the other amenity cards I’ll slot when loyalty requires it.
And just to finish off, you sell your luxes because it is better to do so and then rely on other sources of amenity. Now this may not be your play style but At least explain a bit better than a flippant 95%.
I am not being nit picky, you are being flippant.
 
I don't think Theatre Squares need more adjacency boni, I think Campuses seem less. Frankly it is ridiculous that you can get free Science just by putting your campus next to a mountain without even having to have a citizen to work the campus! Apparently the mountain itself writes a thesis or something... Civ VI is too keen on giving free yields like that. Adjacency boni should be something like "+10% to each Citizen working this district for each adjacent mountain", not straight up "Have 4 Science just for putting a Library in an area of high altitude".

One thing that hopefully they can remedy in civ 7 is to make you actually need to work a district/building to get a bonus from it. For designers who seem big into board games, it's the sort of bonus that you think they would have stolen from a game like Puerto Rico (heck, or even like the old colonization game). In that way, you wouldn't need to have any sort of district limits, but basically, unless if you have a person assigned to work the district, you don't get any benefit from it. That would immediately discourage "wide" play since you can't just pop down a campus in a size 1 city, build up a library/uni, and suddenly get 10-20 bonus science unless if you actually have 3-4 pop to actually work it, which would likely still necessitate a few population points to working tiles as well.
 
One thing that hopefully they can remedy in civ 7 is to make you actually need to work a district/building to get a bonus from it. For designers who seem big into board games, it's the sort of bonus that you think they would have stolen from a game like Puerto Rico (heck, or even like the old colonization game). In that way, you wouldn't need to have any sort of district limits, but basically, unless if you have a person assigned to work the district, you don't get any benefit from it. That would immediately discourage "wide" play since you can't just pop down a campus in a size 1 city, build up a library/uni, and suddenly get 10-20 bonus science unless if you actually have 3-4 pop to actually work it, which would likely still necessitate a few population points to working tiles as well.

Couldn't agree more!
 
No, I am not. I wrote a large blurb explaining why it is not 95% then just removed it because basically there is no rationalisation in your comment. Especially with Coliseum .
You did not need 95% and you have not gone through the logic of the classic republic legacy card I slot more than 50% of the time or the other amenity cards I’ll slot when loyalty requires it.
And just to finish off, you sell your luxes because it is better to do so and then rely on other sources of amenity. Now this may not be your play style but At least explain a bit better than a flippant 95%.
I am not being nit picky, you are being flippant.

All you have proven is that if you neither get Coliseum nor choose Classical Republic, which I would guess constitutes the majority of games played, 100% of your amenities come from luxuries until you get to entertainment complexes (and who builds those anyway?). lol.
 
All you have proven is that if you neither get Coliseum nor choose Classical Republic
Current game screenshots.... Cahokia? and who cares about amenities early when you do not have the pop. You really just typed that response? man you must have been cross, Your use of lol is quite inflammatory you want me to be rude or something?

upload_2020-6-14_20-38-56.png
upload_2020-6-14_20-39-22.png
 
Current game screenshots.... Cahokia? and who cares about amenities early when you do not have the pop. You really just typed that response? man you must have been cross, sorry.

View attachment 559741View attachment 559742

I'm glad to see you basically agree with all of my original claims... I was just surprised you had such a nitpicky and strident answer when it turns out it was a completely thoughtless response!
 
Just some remarks on all the discussions.

First, siome people said: "We don't need the game to be easier". The fact is: producing more culture would not really make the game easier, especially for a Culture Victory. After all, you gain this victory through Tourism, and Cuture serves as a buff, a shield against foreign Tourism. So if foreign civ produces naturally more culture, they would be more resilient againqst your tourism and thus making the CV more difficult.

Then, an adjacency bonus from luxury resources would make more sense for me for the Commercial Hub. After all, the main thing you do with luxury resources is sell them at high prices. All the great trades routes were for luxury resources after all. An I know that, with luxury resources, you can make a lot of arts (jewelry, pigments, sculptures...) but 1) it doesn't help much writers nor musicians to have access to gems except they live better and 2) while silk garnments can be considered artworks, the ones who greatly profited from the Silk Roads were the merchants, not the artists.

Also, for people saying that Entertainment Complexes and Theater Squares should fulfill globally the same purpose and that culture and amenities should be tied, I say NO. Entertainment and culture are two different things. Just see nowadays: when the average citizen in a developed country want to be entertained, where does he go: the stadium to see a game or a museum to see painting? The sad reality is that you go to the stadium to be entertained and the museum to be educated. And there is nothing bad in it. And I know that popular entertainment are on the verge between culture and mere entertainment, but still we have this fundamental division: culture is to fill your brain with new ideas, entertainment is to empty you brain of your personal troubles. The goals are completely different in themselves, enough to justify two different districts. Moreover, TS and EC are not so different: they both give +1 Appeal, meaning that people like as much to go to the zoo than the museum.

Now, the true problem of adjacency. When we talk about adjacency, we have to remember what adjacency means in an abstract way. While I understand the critics of people saying "a campus without workers still produce science", let's imagine that there is actually people in this campus to do the science. What adjacency means then? It's adjacent places or features that help the people working in this place to do their job in a more efficient way. If we look district by district:
  • Campus: mountains are the best places to observe the sky, and astronomy was one of the main driver of science in ancient times; jungles and reefs are full of an intricate biodiversity, helping physicians, chemists and naturalists to advance in the ways of science; and geothermal fissures in odd enough to intrigue enough scientists to study it. It's the same for alt-campuses : the Mayan Observatory gain adjacency bonuses because plantations and farms are places without light pollution and fairly flat, meaning that there is no obstacles to observe the sky, makin the astronomers more efficients; and the Seowong is a reclusive place for philosophers, meaning that farther it is from civilization, the better are the scientists in this place.
  • Holy Site: moutains and woods were often sacred places where miracles were seen. It then makes perfect sense.
  • Commercial Hub: Rivers are the main routes for trade, so a commercial places along a river will make more profit than a one in the inland. The same way, if a commercial hub is near a harbour, then it became some sort of a big two-tile comercial hub with maritime connection where the traders do themselves the trade. And for the Suguba, since religion and trade where very tied so merchants near sites of worship would make more profit.
  • Harbor: Harbors make profit through maritime resources , and when a harbor is close to population centers they're more interconnected with the population, so bam! More gold.
  • Industrial Zone: Quarries, mines and lumbermills produce resources very useful for industrial zone making them more productive. In the same way, having an Aqueduct bringing water for all the factories in an incredible boon.
Now take a look at Theater Squares. What kind of people are working in it? Artists. And what are the role of the artists? Broadly and very simplified, we can say that artist create works to fill with awe the spectator and help him think more deeply about the world around him. And what artists needs most? Some would say psychotropes but it a big lie: a lot of artists were no more intoxicated that the average human, and the myth of the "tortured artist that cannot create without his opium" is a myth. If you can't create art without drugs, you're a bad artist. The intoxicated you might be good, but yourself? No. So luxury resources? Bad idea.

No, what artists need is Inspiration. And where do they take their inspiration? Well, world wonders are a good thing to start: after all, the awe inspired by those monuments would inspire more than one artist. But what else? Nature. Nature has been the main inspiration for Artists for centuries and it's still is today.

So one thing we could have is: Theater Squares gain a minor adjacency bonus for each unimproved adjacent tile. Kind of similar to the Seonwong. But some might think it's too easy, so we can change it by: Theater Squares gain a minor adjacency bonus for each Charming tile and a standard adjacency bonus for each Breathtaking tile. But the problem I see here is that, Mountains being automatically at breathtaking appeal, we'd have a third district that have an adjacency bonus towards mountains, and I don't know for you but my mountains are already crowded enough like that. So many passable charming/breathtaking tiles or passable unimproved tiles? It could be a start.
 
And what artists needs most? Some would say psychotropes
:lol::lol::lol: You made my day.
I like the idea of breathtaking titles bonus a lot :thumbsup:

On top of that great inspiration for artists is a war. Every time you conquer or lost a city for the first time your builder grain ability to build a "Hero monument" improvement that gives +2 culture +2 faith and gives your TS major adjacency bonus.
 
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No, what artists need is Inspiration. And where do they take their inspiration? Well, world wonders are a good thing to start: after all, the awe inspired by those monuments would inspire more than one artist. But what else? Nature. Nature has been the main inspiration for Artists for centuries and it's still is today.

So one thing we could have is: Theater Squares gain a minor adjacency bonus for each unimproved adjacent tile. Kind of similar to the Seonwong. But some might think it's too easy, so we can change it by: Theater Squares gain a minor adjacency bonus for each Charming tile and a standard adjacency bonus for each Breathtaking tile. But the problem I see here is that, Mountains being automatically at breathtaking appeal, we'd have a third district that have an adjacency bonus towards mountains, and I don't know for you but my mountains are already crowded enough like that. So many passable charming/breathtaking tiles or passable unimproved tiles? It could be a start.
That inspiration from nature is because of isolation and makes no sense as adjacency bonus for TS.
Appeal, on the other hand, would make sense, but from an upside-down scale.
 
That inspiration from nature is because of isolation and makes no sense as adjacency bonus for TS.
Appeal, on the other hand, would make sense, but from an upside-down scale.

I also think that, with Commercial Hubs, Theater Squares are the districts that should, thematically, benefit more from adjacent districts, not just a minor bonus. After all, commercial hubs were often the starting points of cities, and artists, when they weren't completely lost in the woods to find true inspiration were mostly seen in city centers, being integral part of the life of the city. The Acropolis adjacency bonus is thematically in this sense.
 
Luxuries are 95% of your amenities? Small empire or low difficulty?

honestly, I'm pretty much the same and I always play immortal and diety, huge maps. I really NEVER build a single entertainment district. I'm happy when I'm playing aggressive and conquer a city that has one, but I won't build it. I sometimes build Water Park late game if I have coastal cities, but still rare. So yes, amenities commes from luxuries, and I spend a lot of time trading for them.
 
Just some remarks on all the discussions.

First, siome people said: "We don't need the game to be easier". The fact is: producing more culture would not really make the game easier, especially for a Culture Victory. After all, you gain this victory through Tourism, and Cuture serves as a buff, a shield against foreign Tourism. So if foreign civ produces naturally more culture, they would be more resilient againqst your tourism and thus making the CV more difficult.

Then, an adjacency bonus from luxury resources would make more sense for me for the Commercial Hub. After all, the main thing you do with luxury resources is sell them at high prices. All the great trades routes were for luxury resources after all. An I know that, with luxury resources, you can make a lot of arts (jewelry, pigments, sculptures...) but 1) it doesn't help much writers nor musicians to have access to gems except they live better and 2) while silk garnments can be considered artworks, the ones who greatly profited from the Silk Roads were the merchants, not the artists.

Also, for people saying that Entertainment Complexes and Theater Squares should fulfill globally the same purpose and that culture and amenities should be tied, I say NO. Entertainment and culture are two different things. Just see nowadays: when the average citizen in a developed country want to be entertained, where does he go: the stadium to see a game or a museum to see painting? The sad reality is that you go to the stadium to be entertained and the museum to be educated. And there is nothing bad in it. And I know that popular entertainment are on the verge between culture and mere entertainment, but still we have this fundamental division: culture is to fill your brain with new ideas, entertainment is to empty you brain of your personal troubles. The goals are completely different in themselves, enough to justify two different districts. Moreover, TS and EC are not so different: they both give +1 Appeal, meaning that people like as much to go to the zoo than the museum.

Now, the true problem of adjacency. When we talk about adjacency, we have to remember what adjacency means in an abstract way. While I understand the critics of people saying "a campus without workers still produce science", let's imagine that there is actually people in this campus to do the science. What adjacency means then? It's adjacent places or features that help the people working in this place to do their job in a more efficient way. If we look district by district:
  • Campus: mountains are the best places to observe the sky, and astronomy was one of the main driver of science in ancient times; jungles and reefs are full of an intricate biodiversity, helping physicians, chemists and naturalists to advance in the ways of science; and geothermal fissures in odd enough to intrigue enough scientists to study it. It's the same for alt-campuses : the Mayan Observatory gain adjacency bonuses because plantations and farms are places without light pollution and fairly flat, meaning that there is no obstacles to observe the sky, makin the astronomers more efficients; and the Seowong is a reclusive place for philosophers, meaning that farther it is from civilization, the better are the scientists in this place.
  • Holy Site: moutains and woods were often sacred places where miracles were seen. It then makes perfect sense.
  • Commercial Hub: Rivers are the main routes for trade, so a commercial places along a river will make more profit than a one in the inland. The same way, if a commercial hub is near a harbour, then it became some sort of a big two-tile comercial hub with maritime connection where the traders do themselves the trade. And for the Suguba, since religion and trade where very tied so merchants near sites of worship would make more profit.
  • Harbor: Harbors make profit through maritime resources , and when a harbor is close to population centers they're more interconnected with the population, so bam! More gold.
  • Industrial Zone: Quarries, mines and lumbermills produce resources very useful for industrial zone making them more productive. In the same way, having an Aqueduct bringing water for all the factories in an incredible boon.
Now take a look at Theater Squares. What kind of people are working in it? Artists. And what are the role of the artists? Broadly and very simplified, we can say that artist create works to fill with awe the spectator and help him think more deeply about the world around him. And what artists needs most? Some would say psychotropes but it a big lie: a lot of artists were no more intoxicated that the average human, and the myth of the "tortured artist that cannot create without his opium" is a myth. If you can't create art without drugs, you're a bad artist. The intoxicated you might be good, but yourself? No. So luxury resources? Bad idea.

No, what artists need is Inspiration. And where do they take their inspiration? Well, world wonders are a good thing to start: after all, the awe inspired by those monuments would inspire more than one artist. But what else? Nature. Nature has been the main inspiration for Artists for centuries and it's still is today.

So one thing we could have is: Theater Squares gain a minor adjacency bonus for each unimproved adjacent tile. Kind of similar to the Seonwong. But some might think it's too easy, so we can change it by: Theater Squares gain a minor adjacency bonus for each Charming tile and a standard adjacency bonus for each Breathtaking tile. But the problem I see here is that, Mountains being automatically at breathtaking appeal, we'd have a third district that have an adjacency bonus towards mountains, and I don't know for you but my mountains are already crowded enough like that. So many passable charming/breathtaking tiles or passable unimproved tiles? It could be a start.

Taking your argument to heart I think that both Holy Sites and Campuses should offer more than minor adjacency. But maybe not, depending on the society dogmatism or even zealous rationalism could be seen as cultural impediments rather than enhancers. In any case this still would require some balancing as I really don't find TS to be weak.

I'm not sold on the natural beauty as inspiration. If my own country has any claim to fame in the art world it's the landscape painting, but these were created by European-descended settlers who had a cultural memory of landscapes marred by industrialization. The beauty of the lands they were painting was inspired by what they had lost back home, and notably lacked any inclusion of the people already living in those landscapes for 1000's of years. "Great Art" has tension, and inspiration will come from what was lost or what is tragic, even if the end result focuses on beauty and happiness.

I also think that our own real world has blurred this line between amenity and culture, when one considers pop culture and how it has evolved. Both have been commodified to such a huge extent that either way we devote huge resources into producing consumer goods to fill both "needs" for culture and amenities.
 
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