[RD] Do 'woke' films go broke? (from LGBTQ news)

[Zardnaar]

I don't doubt they said that, but do you (now) think that's a fair characterisation?


Given your Eternals comment, gonna have to ask you for proof on this one.

Like, any fandom insults anyone for a wide range of reasons. Prove to me that disliking TLJ got you called names. Prove to me that this was different to disliking any other SW film.

None of this is limited to what people call "woke".

The US military rewrites history with its partnership with Hollywood all the time. Gender swaps have been a part of storytelling for centuries, if not millenia. Plenty of movies aren't accurate to the source material, and even when they are, it doesn't make them good.

"boring" characters who are "too powerful" describe people's complaints about Brie Larson as Captain Marvel. It also describes Superman. If the writing doesn't resonate with you, it's not because the film is "woke". It's either something subjective that you didn't like, or it's poor writing (or both).

To "inserting diversity into period pieces", I'll ask a question again I asked earlier: what happened to the best actor or actress for the role?

Nevermind that dramatised retellings often take liberties with the setting. You said women and minorities don't make a film woke. But here you are saying, women and minorities "where they don't belong" make a film woke. It's the same thing my dude. By this argument, all theatre work is "woke". Plus they've been gender-swapping roles for years.


This is very funny, not least because we were all just discussing American History X. Or is that film not good?

It's a tough watch at times, but a pretty darn good film in my opinion.

I'm not going digging through 6 year old internet places I barely remember.

It doesn't really matter what you and I think but tgat list is a decent one more boxes ticked we'll you xan see for yourself.

I musded on directors saying stupid things in interviews eg we like emasculating men.

 

[Arakhor]

There does seem to be a definite trend of woke movies bombing.

Not all of them do but there's some definite trends of what bombs.

1. To preachy and hamfisted.

2. Boring cut out characters who are diverse but to perfect/powerful very little character development.

3. Gender or race swapping established character.

4. Not being faithful to the source material rewriting it to reflect progressive ideals.

5. They insert "woke" ideals into older IP eg 80s or 90s movies even if it makes very little sense to the story.

6. Rewriting history in period pieces.

7. Inserting diverse charact ahistorically in period pieces.

8. Somewhat genre dependent.

Those are some of the bigger trip wires where you'll notice movies bomb. Woke movies as small kinda niche movies that get a couple of hundred million are fine it's more tgey will struggle with blockbuster budgets.

That's the trend we are seeing.

And now you've just ignored all fourteen pages of the thread to go straight back to your axe-grinding that if a film with both progressive and poor elements does badly, it's woke, even after stating multiple times that "woke" is contextual. Are you here for a discussion, or to give a lecture?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I recall when Ashoka was first initially introduced, most fans saw her as an annoying sidekick character for Anakin in Clone Wars (Some debated if Ashoka is worse than Jar Jar Binks). There was a term we had before wokeness and the culture war came into the discourse and pop culture, The Scrappy. It wasn’t until she had significant character development (especially in the episodes you’ve listed in your post) as the series progress that she was rescued from the scrappy heap.

Honestly looking through the clone wars movie, her character is not all that different from like how Anakin or Luke was, expect maybe taken to more extremes and perhaps being unlucky to make her apperance in the worst reviewed Star Wars movie and being inserted into the story after 6 movies been made and not being mentioned in any of them. Although being poorly recieved at first maybe also make her development feel more real and relatable.

But atleast her skills is more explained than characters like Luke, Anakin and Ray given she actually trained as a jedi since like age of 3, yet obviously given that as a teenager she already could be compared to the strongest jedi in the order that still make her power level questionable, but when we have like Darth Maul that at just like age 22 could fight and defeat both Obi Wan and Qui gon jin at the same time and was perhaps even more skillful with lightsaber than somebody like Count Dooku, but due to underestamting and being sloppy with his opponents leads to his defeats.

Ahsoka could probably just be said to be similar to Darth Maul, trained from a very young age and had to face and overcome really difficult challenges as a teenager (more so than wast majority of star wars characters), which is a reason why people like her so much, like her struggles are relatable and unlike Maul, she learns from her mistakes and keep improving and eventually surpass him. However to reach her peek, which supposedly is near/around Vader and Sidious level, she have to suffer through a lot, not just being given that level. Like she is introduced and become padawan in middle of a war zone and have to fight Ventress a character who seems to be able to defeat jedi masters like Obi Wan and also an example of an strong female jedi/sith character and pretty much the rest of clone wars is like that, Ahsoka have to face the most difficult challenges (of various types) and overcome them at an age younger than epsiode II Anakin or epsiode IV Luke.

Honestly it seems so unfair that like Luke, Rey (and Anakin to a lesser degree) is like just given her level or beyond that given non of them seems to have to train as hard, struggle as much or go through the stuff she has to do to reach that level. She started her jedi training at like age 3, much earlier than like Luke and since age 14 she pretty much spent her life in war. At the age before Luke even get to touch a lightsaber, Ahsoka was very accomplished. Anakin atleast have bunch of years of jedi training himself and was also the master of Ahsoka and don't seems to be potrayed as being way beyond her level and weaker in significant ways such as maturity and mentality, he also have to struggle although in different ways from Ahsoka.

If anything Luke and Rey seems to be way more questionable characters compared to Anakin and especially Ahsoka. Luke in particular is made out so important that Obi Wan spend like half his life in exil to protect him and die doing so and Obi Wan and Yoda saying all hope is lost when Luke refuse to kill Darth Vader, which seems very questionable for two of the greatest jedi to put all their hope in like one basket on an very inexperienced Luke. Darth Vader and Sidious are potrayed as very strong but not unbeatable and it seems strange that Obi Wan and Yoda last years put them in such low point that they depend on a young adult. Although to be fair, Obi Wan actually dueled and could not defeat Darth Vader in New Hope.

Ahsoka seems to be like the least problematic young powerful star wars protagonist, her skills are more well earned and her existence don't devaluate other characters much if at all, if anything her existence help contribute towards Anakin. She is never made into a super important character story wise like Luke or Anakin, yet it feels like her accomplishments are more genue, maybe because they are smaller in scope and more directly tied to her rather than a much greater goal and thus more relatable.

And all this above seems to have nothing to do with any of the characters race, gender or physical appearance, just that I think Ahsoka is a more grounded character with a more well written and more relatable story than other main star wars characters.

 

[Zardnaar]

And now you've just ignored all fourteen pages of the thread to go straight back to your axe-grinding that if a film with both progressive and poor elements does badly, it's woke, even after stating multiple times that "woke" is contextual. Are you here for a discussion, or to give a lecture?

Neither I didn't start the thread but that list is a list of things that tend to trigger claims of being woke.

Personally I don't think woke movies are a great idea for big budget type blockbuster movies. Look at MCU box office recently or post pandemic big hits.

Then go through that list I made and se how much of it I applicable to John Wick, Avatar 2, Top Gun Maverick, Mario.

Honestly looking through the clone wars movie, her character is not all that different from like how Anakin or Luke was, expect maybe taken to more extremes and perhaps being unlucky to make her apperance in the worst reviewed Star Wars movie and being inserted into the story after 6 movies been made and not being mentioned in any of them. Although being poorly recieved at first maybe also make her development feel more real and relatable.

But atleast her skills is more explained than characters like Luke, Anakin and Ray given she actually trained as a jedi since like age of 3, yet obviously given that as a teenager she already could be compared to the strongest jedi in the order that still make her power level questionable, but when we have like Darth Maul that at just like age 22 could fight and defeat both Obi Wan and Qui gon jin at the same time and was perhaps even more skillful with lightsaber than somebody like Count Dooku, but due to underestamting and being sloppy with his opponents leads to his defeats.

Ahsoka could probably just be said to be similar to Darth Maul, trained from a very young age and had to face and overcome really difficult challenges as a teenager (more so than wast majority of star wars characters), which is a reason why people like her so much, like her struggles are relatable and unlike Maul, she learns from her mistakes and keep improving and eventually surpass him. However to reach her peek, which supposedly is near/around Vader and Sidious level, she have to suffer through a lot, not just being given that level. Like she is introduced and become padawan in middle of a war zone and have to fight Ventress a character who seems to be able to defeat jedi masters like Obi Wan and also an example of an strong female jedi/sith character and pretty much the rest of clone wars is like that, Ahsoka have to face the most difficult challenges (of various types) and overcome them at an age younger than epsiode II Anakin or epsiode IV Luke.

Honestly it seems so unfair that like Luke, Rey (and Anakin to a lesser degree) is like just given her level or beyond that given non of them seems to have to train as hard, struggle as much or go through the stuff she has to do to reach that level. She started her jedi training at like age 3, much earlier than like Luke and since age 14 she pretty much spent her life in war. At the age before Luke even get to touch a lightsaber, Ahsoka was very accomplished. Anakin atleast have bunch of years of jedi training himself and was also the master of Ahsoka and don't seems to be potrayed as being way beyond her level and weaker in significant ways such as maturity and mentality, he also have to struggle although in different ways from Ahsoka.

If anything Luke and Rey seems to be way more questionable characters compared to Anakin and especially Ahsoka. Luke in particular is made out so important that Obi Wan spend like half his life in exil to protect him and die doing so and Obi Wan and Yoda saying all hope is lost when Luke refuse to kill Darth Vader, which seems very questionable for two of the greatest jedi to put all their hope in like one basket on an very inexperienced Luke. Darth Vader and Sidious are potrayed as very strong but not unbeatable and it seems strange that Obi Wan and Yoda last years put them in such low point that they depend on a young adult. Although to be fair, Obi Wan actually dueled and could not defeat Darth Vader in New Hope.

Ahsoka seems to be like the least problematic young powerful star wars protagonist, her skills are more well earned and her existence don't devaluate other characters much if at all, if anything her existence help contribute towards Anakin. She is never made into a super important character story wise like Luke or Anakin, yet it feels like her accomplishments are more genue, maybe because they are smaller in scope and more directly tied to her rather than a much greater goal and thus more relatable.

And all this above seems to have nothing to do with any of the characters race, gender or physical appearance, just that I think Ahsoka is a more grounded character with a more well written and more relatable story than other main star wars characters.

Main problem with Ahsoka at least early was she 14. Anakin was 10.

Luke got minimal training, got bailed out by more experienced characters Obi Wan/Han ANH, Han again ESB.

Anakin and Ahsoka both got trained and they're Jedi.

In TFA Rey gets a pass on sone nechanic skills but shows up Han on his own ship, busts out force powers untrained, shows up Poe the more experienced pilot (cg Han slapping Luke's gand in ANH then shooting Vader off hus tail later) then busting out force powers untrained then defeats a trained Jedi who was also trained in the dark side.

Very different portrayal. If she was a Jedi Knight for example fair enough or was using those powers in pt 3 or so. Luke sucked as a Jedi until RotJ.

TFA wasn't overly woke more a rehash with Rey being boring as she's just that damn good. Ahsokas just way better written although she had the advantage of different medium. Then again Jyn Erso was also great with kess screen time than Rey so go figure.

They made Poe and Funn suck as well so they ruined all 3 characters. Yay. Ventress was also a great villain.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Atleast a 14 year old Ahsoka have 11 years of jedi training, yes she is obviously overpowered in the sense at like age 17 is like beyond the abilities of most jedi masters and in some ways even starting to outdoing Obi Wan, but as said that is like true Darth Maul, which is perhaps one of her best counterparts.

 

[Zardnaar]

Atleast a 14 year old Ahsoka have 11 years of jedi training, yes she is obviously overpowered in the sense at like age 17 is like beyond the abilities of most jedi masters and in some ways even starting to outdoing Obi Wan, but as said that is like true Darth Maul, which is perhaps one of her best counterparts.

Yeah see my point about internal consistency. Characters with the force are better than others. Once traibed/experienced they're essentially super heroes.

I woukd give a Rey a pass on basic mechanics, desert survival, using vehicles. Piloting the Falcon bit of a stretch and the Jedi stuff not so much.

You don't need an in depth explanation eg Sith Apprentice/Lord Jedi Knight/Master already implies experience. Ezra and Kanen pass this snuff test as well.

 

[Gorbles]

Piloting the Falcon bit of a stretch

Luke, X-Wing, trench run, Death Star

In TFA Rey gets a pass on sone nechanic skills but shows up Han on his own ship, busts out force powers untrained, shows up Poe the more experienced pilot (cg Han slapping Luke's gand in ANH then shooting Vader off hus tail later) then busting out force powers untrained then defeats a trained Jedi who was also trained in the dark side.

Luke also busts out Force powers untrained. That's how the trench run scene happened. It's also directly implied in dialogue that his connection to the Force is frustrating Vader's efforts to shoot him down in the trench.

Also, small point, but Kylo Ren had a Wookie bowcaster bolt through his stomach. You know, the weapon we saw blast Stormtroopers through the air? In the same movie (almost like foreshadowing, wild)? Yeah, I'm sure he's fighting on a full tank

Man, you talk about not wanting to go back six years, but this is the same argument I've read every year since TFA came out. It's been eight years, and the arguments are the same. So are the counterarguments, and there have been none in return. Just repeating the same "wee wah she's strong" like Anakin wasn't, and like Luke wasn't (especially considering the relatively lower power levels displayed in the original trilogy - Luke was doing things that we didn't get to see Ben do, that we only saw Vader and I guess Yoda do).

 

[Zardnaar]

Luke, X-Wing, trench run, Death Star


Luke also busts out Force powers untrained. That's how the trench run scene happened. It's also directly implied in dialogue that his connection to the Force is frustrating Vader's efforts to shoot him down in the trench.

Also, small point, but Kylo Ren had a Wookie bowcaster bolt through his stomach. You know, the weapon we saw blast Stormtroopers through the air? In the same movie (almost like foreshadowing, wild)? Yeah, I'm sure he's fighting on a full tank

Man, you talk about not wanting to go back six years, but this is the same argument I've read every year since TFA came out. It's been eight years, and the arguments are the same. So are the counterarguments, and there have been none in return. Just repeating the same "wee wah she's strong" like Anakin wasn't, and like Luke wasn't (especially considering the relatively lower power levels displayed in the original trilogy - Luke was doing things that we didn't get to see Ben do, that we only saw Vader and I guess Yoda do).

Other characters referenced that Luke was a good pilot just like his father. And he says he can fly as well.

So he's a force sensitive pilot getting advice from Obi Wan after getting bailed out by Han. And Obi Wan earlier.

Very different. Doesn't Rey bail out Poe in TFA?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Erza and Kanen potrayal is good, which also showcase just how huge the difference is between maybe your average jedi padawan/knight and like the top that includes Vader and Ahsoka. But that don't explain why like even your average if not council member look rather weak compared to those characters in their peek, like especially Ahsoka is from my knowledge never mentioned to be particular gifted in the force, similar to Obi Wan who is also way beyond the average, maybe the average jedi was quite sloppy in their training compared to Ahsoka and Obi Wan?

 

[Gorbles]

Other characters referenced that Luke was a good pilot just like his father. And he says he can fly as well.

So he's a force sensitive pilot getting advice from Obi Wan after getting bailed out by Han. And Obi Wan earlier.

Very different. Doesn't Rey bail out Poe in TFA?

Why is it very different? Luke had never been off-planet. He'd never been under enemy fire. The only leg-up he got was the T-16 having similar controls to an X-Wing.

What did Rey do for most of her life? Oh, right, scavenge giant ships, know how much parts were worth, etc, et al. It's understandable she'd know how something like a Corellian freighter worked, if you cut her the same slack you're cutting Luke. And this is what it comes down to. You not applying the same standards consistently between Rey and Luke (nevermind Anakin, virgin birth Force god hahaha).

• Rey is a Force-sensitive scavenger with extensive experience of a wide array of both Imperial and Alliance vessels (crashed on Jakku).
• Luke is a Force-sensitive pilot who benefitted from Incom controls for both his T-16 and the X-Wing he piloted into a Death Star trench.

He still needed to use his Force abilities, with next-to-no training, to make a superhuman shot with proton torpedos (while being shot at, without using any targeting system).

Like, c'mon. If you don't want to give Rey a pass, it's not because she hasn't earned it. It's because of how you personally have decided to rationalise one, but not the other. It's Star Wars. It's magical space western action fantasy. It doesn't require groundbreaking intelligence to connect the dots.

(and this is before we even get to the Force dyad thing, because as much as I think it was terribly-explained, it was a pretty interesting concept that followed the deuteragonists of Rey and Kylo Ren / Ben Solo around - that would also explain her rapid growth when facing off against the other half of the dyad)

 

[Zardnaar]

Why is it very different? Luke had never been off-planet. He'd never been under enemy fire. The only leg-up he got was the T-16 having similar controls to an X-Wing.

What did Rey do for most of her life? Oh, right, scavenge giant ships, know how much parts were worth, etc, et al. It's understandable she'd know how something like a Corellian freighter worked, if you cut her the same slack you're cutting Luke. And this is what it comes down to. You not applying the same standards consistently between Rey and Luke (nevermind Anakin, virgin birth Force god hahaha).

• Rey is a Force-sensitive scavenger with extensive experience of a wide array of both Imperial and Alliance vessels (crashed on Jakku).
• Luke is a Force-sensitive pilot who benefitted from Incom controls for both his T-16 and the X-Wing he piloted into a Death Star trench.

He still needed to use his Force abilities, with next-to-no training, to make a superhuman shot with proton torpedos (while being shot at, without using any targeting system).

Like, c'mon. If you don't want to give Rey a pass, it's not because she hasn't earned it. It's because of how you personally have decided to rationalise one, but not the other. It's Star Wars. It's magical space western action fantasy. It doesn't require groundbreaking intelligence to connect the dots.

(and this is before we even get to the Force dyad thing, because as much as I think it was terribly-explained, it was a pretty interesting concept that followed the deuteragonists of Rey and Kylo Ren / Ben Solo around - that would also explain her rapid growth when facing off against the other half of the dyad)

It's like a previous poster salt analogy. I don't think the ST was tgat woke but Rey had some 9fvthose traits. She doesn't seem overly popular even amoung liberals.

Force dyad concept was decent KotoR 2 had something similar. Bigger problem with ST was it was rushed, unplanned, crappy writing.

They also kinda just ripped off ideas from elsewhere but did it worse espicially TFA and RoS.

TLJ big problem was painting themselves into a corner with no viable villain left for pt 3.

 

[Gorbles]

It's like a previous poster salt analogy. I don't think the ST was tgat woke but Rey had some 9fvthose traits. She doesn't seem overly popular even amoung liberals.

Force dyad concept was decent KotoR 2 had something similar. Bigger problem with ST was it was rushed, unplanned, crappy writing.

They also kinda just ripped off ideas from elsewhere but did it worse espicially TFA and RoS.

TLJ big problem was painting themselves into a corner with no viable villain left for pt 3.

You keep moving the argument around.

Why was Rey any different to Luke? Both used significant Force powers with little-to-no training. Both exhibited mechanical skills beyond what should've been possible even accounting for their respective backgrounds (dealing with droids, scavenging from ships, etc), which is a common thing when dealing with Force users that display an affinity with technology.

There's no difference. If Rey is a Mary Sue, Luke is a Mary Sue. If Rey has "woke" traits. Luke has "woke" traits. It's like complaining that Star Trek has "woke" traits despite it pushing the envelope in a number of ways right from the original series. It's all contrived culture war baloney.

If you want to not like the movie, not like Rey, think it doesn't do a good job, that's fine. We have words for that. "woke" isn't one of them.

 

[EgonSpengler]

2023 Domestic Box Office

2. Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse $358,957,690
3. Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 3 $357,715,406
and 4. The Little Mermaid $289,863,916

(#1 at the domestic B.O. is still Super Mario Bros. at $573,800,835. I don't know if anybody knows what's going on there. )

I was listening to a podcast this morning, and one of the women noted with evident pleasure that in The Super Mario Bros. Movie, Princess Peach is the action hero(ine) and Luigi is the damsel-dude-in-distress. So, yes, all four of the top grossing movies, as of the time of my original post, were 'woke' as f. Also worth noting, The Super Mario Bros. movie is an example of a film disliked by critics yet beloved by audiences: 58% Critics' Score on Rotten Tomatoes, 95% Audience Score. So we can't even say that "woke" movies are adored by the over-educated, coastal elite and the rest of you jabronies can choke on it. Nope, in this case, it's entirely the opposite.

A message from the hard-working people of America to Hollywood, regarding your [goshdarned] "woke" movies:

Spoiler :

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

You keep moving the argument around.

Why was Rey any different to Luke? Both used significant Force powers with little-to-no training. Both exhibited mechanical skills beyond what should've been possible even accounting for their respective backgrounds (dealing with droids, scavenging from ships, etc), which is a common thing when dealing with Force users that display an affinity with technology.

There's no difference. If Rey is a Mary Sue, Luke is a Mary Sue. If Rey has "woke" traits. Luke has "woke" traits. It's like complaining that Star Trek has "woke" traits despite it pushing the envelope in a number of ways right from the original series. It's all contrived culture war baloney.

If you want to not like the movie, not like Rey, think it doesn't do a good job, that's fine. We have words for that. "woke" isn't one of them.

Seems very resonable argument and to continue, Anakin, the chosen one could fly ships and build droids at age 10 while been a slave on Tatooine and quickly become one of the most powerful jedi once he join the order at a late age, surpassing the jedi master in overall skills in perhaps only 10 years, being able to defeat Count Dooku while being early 20s, an opponent who could keep up with Yoda and defeat Obi Wan without much effort and his padawan Ahsoka must also be mentioned as she probably was more capable than many jedi masters at just age 17 and also potrayed having mechanical skills and ability to fly spaceships, good understanding of tactics and overall very smart at as early age of 14.

Spoiler The clone wars :

I've read that Maul and Ahsoka combined had a good possibility to stop Darth Vader and Sidious, at that point Ahsoka is only 17 and if true that would put a 17 year old Ahsoka perhaps beyond most council memembers who Sidious could like kill instantly and Savage Oppress (who is very strong and a serious threat to like anyone including like Dooku who could only keep him at bay with lightning, yet Maul could defeat him without much effort), even Obi Wan was not allowed to face Sidious. But in the end Maul and Ahsoka end up in a 1 vs 1 duel, which while showing Ahsoka being the weaker saber wielder at this point, but not to an extreme and Maul at this point could keep up in a duel against Sidious and defeat people like Obi Wan meaning a 17 year old Ahsoka being able to fight at Mauls level even to a somewhat limit degree is crazy and eventually she actually defeat Maul becoming the only teenager jedi I know of that defeated a sith lord or equivalent in a 1 against 1 duel perhaps an even more impressive victory than Anakin defeating Dooku

Honestly you can probably just keep digging and find all these young and like story wise overpowered characters, but as said before Ahsoka in particular seems to be a very beloved character, so if she is a woke character, it would mean woke characters can be very beloved and if Rey is a woke character, you can probably consider Ahsoka as one as well. You probably can even use characters outside of star wars that are similar as argument that a character like Rey is not woke.

I don't see how they could be Mary Sue, Anakin and Ahsoka threaten and beat up defenceless characters and in the story is not exactly liked by everyone, if anything they are potrayed as quite flawed people. I don't think Luke and Rey are potrayed as perfect either, but I remember their stories less. Like even the republic and jedi order, like what we would think is good side in the clone wars, bread and use a slave army, child soldiers, willing to abandon and execute teenagers/children, do things that lead to innocents being killed, can be very corrupt and jedi seems to in some way protect the corrupt senators and republic and fight in a war leading the slave army which seems to be far from the original purpose of peace keepers by this point, the jedi council seems to be largely made up of people with about the same viewpoint which surpress like other viewpoints like Qui Gon Jin and Dooku. Seperatist, Empire, New Republic and probably any other big galatic organization in star wars seems to be potrayed in a pretty negative way if you look deep enough.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Rey is a mary sue, sorry. Luke got training directly from Kenobi and Yoda before he confronted and redeemed Vader.

As for Ahoska, check this out (NSFW)

 

[Gorbles]

Luke got training directly from Kenobi and Yoda before he confronted and redeemed Vader.

The trench run was before any direct training. There's a reason I've been mentioning it

 

[Zardnaar]

The trench run was before any direct training. There's a reason I've been mentioning it

He was being ciached by Obi's spirit and had training on the Falcon by then so had been taught how to use the force at a somewhat minimal level.

He wasn't using mind trick, dueling dark Jedi and had been veiled out by Obi twice and Han once.

He still needed help.

And he lost his first duel after more training costing him his hand.

 

[Gorbles]

He was being ciached by Obi's spirit and had training on the Falcon by then so had been taught how to use the force at a somewhat minimal level.

He wasn't using mind trick, dueling dark Jedi and had been veiled out by Obi twice and Han once.

He also wasn't one half of a Force dyad.

He also had far less piloting experience than Rey, who grew up alone scavenging on Jakku.

We can keep going at this, because defending either is perfectly doable. Characterising both as a Mary Sue is perfectly doable (if you want to be uncharitable). That's my point.

I don't believe either of them are. But in order to accuse Rey of being one, you have to be harsher to her than you are being to Luke.

(I haven't been mentioning the Sidious thing, because it was imo a poor decision - but it is also canon and thus an explanation for her Force proficiency)

 

[Zardnaar]

He also wasn't one half of a Force dyad.

He also had far less piloting experience than Rey, who grew up alone scavenging on Jakku.

We can keep going at this, because defending either is perfectly doable. Characterising both as a Mary Sue is perfectly doable (if you want to be uncharitable). That's my point.

I don't believe either of them are. But in order to accuse Rey of being one, you have to be harsher to her than you are being to Luke.

(I haven't been mentioning the Sidious thing, because it was imo a poor decision - but it is also canon and thus an explanation for her Force proficiency)

Luke and Anakin Vader thing. That's more force potential.

Luke was a skilled pilot before he jumped in an X-Wing. Hell exposition in the movie establushed this.

You're also avoiding the tone of it. Resource your typical Hollywood girl boss card board cut out. She has very few weaknesses Luke kinda sucks until Return of the Jedi.

Rey is a lot more powerful a lot sooner with no weaknesses or drawbacks comparatively.

Rey specifically says she's never flown it (the Falcon) before and is pulling off Han level stunts two minutes later.

 

[Angst]

i don't think you understand what mary sue means, or rather what you're making it mean when you use it right now

also gorbles said it themselves, but you keep making reasons, so it's like - gorbles is not trying to get you to get defensive about protecting luke from being a mary sue, digging for reasons that gorbles ain't seeing. it's kind of bizarre to read you actually go through the arguments as if something is getting attacked. gorbles' point is that star wars is a dumb action adventure, even if well- & smartly made, and some handwaving about character power and character progression is part of the verisimilitude. that your usage of mary sue here is a weird attribution, and that thinking a mary sue female character is some "woke" thing is also similarly, well, unfortunate

girlboss mary sue woke or whatever is basically, as you note, a typical hollywood cardboard cutout, but it's only "woke" when it's done to women, and somehow in this case it's an attribution you staunchly want to break from luke because it's a property you happen to like

it's actually very strange to follow (as it were when you engaged with me before), with you suddenly emptying yourself of points, you just handwaved mine away or ignored them - while not actually engaging with what gorbles is actually trying to say. try to detach yourself from the property and look at what gorbles say about mary sues:

I don't believe either of them are.

so this relating to your claim of her being a mary sue has nothing to do with your idea that luke isn't one. gorbles isn't trying to make luke a mary sue. there's no point in defending luke from being it.

read what people are saying and engage with that, eh?