I would agree, considering the amount of change. It basically has gameplay changes to every civ in the game, that's a pretty major change.
Do you predominately play with the 4UC modmod?
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Would be cool to integrate it before gold, though.
pineappledan
Deity
I will say however that the current supermajority threshold is overly strict. Supermajority should be a 2:1 majority, not a 3:1. You’re never going to pass anything if you need 75% approval.
Heinz_Guderian
Prince
You are probably right, but how do we work around that? That could be said for a lot of things quite arbitrarily and why should this be a relevant argument for this and not other similar cases?
pineappledan
Deity
Any proposal that is big enough to require supermajority will necessarily be controversial. It is categorically a “big” change after all. The things that are passing with 80%+ majorities are uncontroversial little things.
Anything that necessitates a supermajority vote will not pass it in the current system. It makes the entire system otiose; we could just ban all “big” changes as out of scope and save everyone a bunch of time.
L. Vern
Warlord
I never said it shouldn't or couldn't be used for some purpose, just to be wary due to its source. For sending out feelers and gauging the interest of 4UC integration, I don't see a problem.
Since the conversation has shifted to a thread about 4UC integration btw, I would vote yes for such a proposal - I think it's a great addition from a gameplay perspective while also being a shining example of a "community patch" concept itself.
P.S. Great to see a preference on one side or the other from the population that reads and cares about the stats that I put out - next run will definitely be 4UC, and possibly the rest of them depending on how that goes and the feedback I get
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Tekamthi
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I don't see a strong need for integration here (I voted yes as frequent user)
If something like 90%+ were using this then maybe I could see a case being made, but right now, implemented as modmod, we have the "feature" of enabling it or not, everyone is happy. Integrating it disables this "feature", and forces a third of the community to play something they aren't necessarily interested in.
The main advantage I see here is to PD's workload. The past year or two of VP has seen frequent database structural changes that break modmods, the effort of releasing timely modmod updates to accommodate these should not be underestimated, and I think we take for granted that MUC will be updated within a few days at most after new VP drops -- if it were integrated the team of devs would look after the updates, pd and any muc helpers would be off the hook... This could be reason alone to integrate, say if pd or others were no longer available to update the modmod. But otherwise it's more valuable to the community as a modmod.
The poll is still valuable in assessing whether it's fair to vote in Congress with MUC in mind (ie Maori warrior proposal this round) -- so far I think that case is established
If something like 90%+ were using this then maybe I could see a case being made, but right now, implemented as modmod, we have the "feature" of enabling it or not, everyone is happy. Integrating it disables this "feature", and forces a third of the community to play something they aren't necessarily interested in.
The main advantage I see here is to PD's workload. The past year or two of VP has seen frequent database structural changes that break modmods, the effort of releasing timely modmod updates to accommodate these should not be underestimated, and I think we take for granted that MUC will be updated within a few days at most after new VP drops -- if it were integrated the team of devs would look after the updates, pd and any muc helpers would be off the hook... This could be reason alone to integrate, say if pd or others were no longer available to update the modmod. But otherwise it's more valuable to the community as a modmod.
The poll is still valuable in assessing whether it's fair to vote in Congress with MUC in mind (ie Maori warrior proposal this round) -- so far I think that case is established
pineappledan
Deity
The reasons I have heard most often from people who do NOT use 4UC are usually things that would be addressed by integration. Things like "it's full of lua jank", and "the mod breaks on every version change” would no longer be issues if it was being maintained as part of the main mod. From this, I gather that there is a group of people who do not use 4UC, but would probably still agree to its integration. At least in theory.
That being said some people just don't like some of the additions.
That being said some people just don't like some of the additions.
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Recursive made the rules for the congress, so such a change would likely go to him. We Magi would of course voice our opinions
My general thought is, I agree 75% is probably too much. I might support 2/3s but would likely want a minimum vote requirement. Aka I want to ensure we have like 60-70 votes on something that would involve that level of change, to ensure a reasonable reflection of the entire community.
For me the rationale is....its not the standard mod. Since I try to give balance feedback with standard settings as much as possible (which is why I generally only play standard speed and size), I normally use the standards as much as possible. Heck I even started including ruins back into my play when I realized they were considered the "standard settings".
I also think the big question for you PDAN is....do you want your project to be subject to the whims of the congress? Once its core proposals can start "hacking into it" and change it as the community sees fit. Do you want to relinquish that creative control?
Personally, I can no longer conceive VP without MUCfVP, it offers unparalleled depth of play and as a creator/adaptor of new civilizations, a much greater pleasure of reflection and design.
I can only support a VP implementation which would ensure its sustainability and compatibility. For those who don't want to play with it, a button to activate (or deactivate) could be a solution as proposed @Agiwan .
I can only support a VP implementation which would ensure its sustainability and compatibility. For those who don't want to play with it, a button to activate (or deactivate) could be a solution as proposed @Agiwan .
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pineappledan
Deity
Yes. I do. Or something like it.
The 4UC project was designed and initially implemented by a group of people. I only designed and implemented about 1/3rd of the 43 civs' extra components. It was never my intention to be caught holding the bag.
That doesn't mean I won't have opinions on it if I relinquish total creative control, and that the mod hasn't come to reflect my own design preferences in obvious ways. I don't think it's in the best interest of the mod, the community, or myself if I am expected to maintain the 4UC mod by myself in perpetuity.
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the problem we get in though is that leads to think like EUI vs non-EUI all over again. It creates branches of support you have to maintain, which is fine when you get a full development team going but is a crappy expectation for a small volunteer group.
To me its all or nothing. If we did do a big vote to integrate and its passed....than that's the new standard, get on board. If it does't it stays a modmod. But I don't think we want to support such as a massive change as a button you can flip on and off.
Tekamthi
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Wouldn't this just imply having a separate SQL for the MUC stuff? If box is checked, load the muc file; if not, don't
pineappledan
Deity
4UC is far more modular than EUI, so I disagree with your assessment that it would cause a similar issue.
Whether it remains modular after integration, as people start to enmesh the bonuses deeper into the civs' overall kits would remain to be seen.
Whether it remains modular after integration, as people start to enmesh the bonuses deeper into the civs' overall kits would remain to be seen.
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I'm completely for full integration but it would still be a big change for players who don't leave the standard mod
.My main concern is sustainability, PDan like each modder can give up one day and if the code is in VP, the functionalities which fall with new modifications of the core will be maintained by a team or at least certain changes will be made taking into account the needs of the MUC mod.
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