Do you really feel that the US way is right?

[joespaniel]

Glad you liked my coffee icon!

I got that one and a bunch of other ones at this site:

community.theunderdogs.org

EDIT: oops! Its wasnt working. I fixed it, go ahead.

If you find some more good ones, be sure to share!

To answer your post about "democracy", all I can say is sorry if disagreeing with you makes you feel "oppressed".

Democracy today is all about accepting everyone into a big group, from every culture, race and religion. So its loaded from the very beginning to be full of different points of view, and conflict. That conflict is baffling to people unlike us, who have never experienced the good things about it. Being free to improve your life either economicaly, spiritualy or whatever it is that floats your boat.

Some people are told where they will work, where they will live, and who they will marry... etc. Some people live in places where war and famine rule the land, and will probably live short, miserable lives.

Think about the things we take for granted every day that people in other lands would give anything to have. I've been to places like Afghanistan, and it made me appreciate what I have, and Im just a poor bartender!

You are free to dislike my country and its government, but keep in mind that if you say something thats untrue or speculation, I am free to express myself too. And it might not be flattering.

About the question "did we deserve it?"

I've had enough of people kicking around my country after watching some @$$holes kill five thousand civilians in one morning. Do you people have no sense of shame?

Do you think those kids whose parents died in a crumbling inferno deserved that? Those were people in those buildings and planes. Terrified people. It wasnt a movie, it was real. They burned and died horribly.

They were people just like you and me, trying to earn a living or get through school. Not numbers on a news program. Remember that. They werent all stockbrokers and fat, rich Americans. Some were restaurant workers or other poor slobs. Some were Arab Muslims, and they were killed too.

I dont see the need to pound this into the ground anymore. Give it a rest. I, for one, feel the next time another country is in dire trouble, we should remember who stood with us, and who bad-mouthed us for defending ourselves.

Fortunately for them, we'll probably help them anyway. We have short term memory in this country, and were suckers for the underdog.

 

[SunTzu]

Every gaming forum is a Dictatorship, well hell most likely every site is a dictatorship.
Administrator(s) and Moderator(s) control what you, the users, say and do.
That simple. There is no government on the internet.
You come to Civfanatics and post at the forums you are 'living' under TF's roof.
Follow his rules and post w/o breaking them that simple.
Its not a science

 

[sonorakitch]

Redwolf,

First, you crossed the line when you stated:
"No wonder the disenfranchised people of the world fly planes into buildings."

The terrorists are not disenfranchised...what a ridiculous statement. Just reconsider it please.

On a more exploratory note, I am not sure what you want to happen to the nations which are 'exploited by sweatshops'. It is very easy to decry the practices of MNC's, but whenever I ask a anti-globalizationist for a solution, they generally lie in that "Unrealistic" category. My point is: without MNC's, the nations would continue to employ 80% of its labor force in the fields, which is seasonal, low paying, and have poorer working conditions than any sweatshop. So if you are suggesting we just pull out: it won't leave the conditions any better. Are you suggesting we instead start paying minimum wage and provide 2 weeks of vacation a year? This is where the irrational problem starts. Because if we did this, the MNC's would pull back home and the LDC's would be stuck with no investment and a huge labor force getting muddy once again in the fields. Don't forget: both of our countries were started from MNC exploitation.

Again, the main problem with radical liberalism is a lack of rationality and reason. The problem, you might say, with conservatism is that we have no heart. Well, okay. You don't have to say it I guess.

~Chris

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

The september 11 attacks were horrible. Nothing can excuse it, even though America has also done alot of horrible things (200,000 dead in central america in the 80s was a figure I saw). "Free trade" is freedom to erode the American quality of life by sending once good paying to jobs to countries where virtual slavery and environmental degradation are winked at. Political discussions among Civ fans are a good thing, free speech is a great thing, war sucks, restricting the rights of Americans will never fly. How would I respond to september 11 if I was the president? I would fill my country and any other territory with temples, cathedrals, libraries, universities, colloseums, and wonders, balance progress with quality of life for my citizens, and encourage a flourishing democracy. Then I would sit back and watch lesser nations succumb to my high culture.

 

[joespaniel]

Thanks for ignoring my whole post about saying unsubstantiated things.

What 200,000 people did we kill now?

Never mind. I have to go to my job at a major MNC and plot to destroy all foriegners.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by sonorakitch
Redwolf,
First, you crossed the line when you stated:
"No wonder the disenfranchised people of the world fly planes into buildings."

The terrorists are not disenfranchised...what a ridiculous statement. Just reconsider it please.

I don't believe that I crossed any line because it is in fact what i believe to be the truth.

Now this is what i hate about the Americans in this forum... I try to offer an opposing point of view and I am villanized.

Did i EVER say that 5000 Americans deserved to die on the morning of September 11th? NO. JESUS CHRIST. Do you think I'm a god damn monster? I stood at work that morning with my mouth open saying "oh my god. how could this happen?" just like everybody else.

What i said if you really cared to listen was "I understand why people would feel this incredible anger at the West". This doesn't justify the bombings - NOTHING justifies the murder of 5000 innocents. I will say this for the last time - NOBODY deserved that tradgedy. If you do wish however then you may as well attack me. I don't care. I expect nothing less from the people on this forum. Some things never change.

You don't think the terrorists were disenfranchised? They sure as hell were. Rational people just don't wake up one morning and say "hmm.. lets kill 5000 americans today". Something breeds that kind of hate. Sure Bin Ladin is a lunatic but in order to attract followers even lunatics need a cause... something to rally the people around. Have you ever considered the fact that just maybe the heart wrenching poverty of the third world is just such a cause? It doesn't EVER justify this horible act (I'll say it for the last time) but i do understand where this hatred comes from.

In a David Letterman interview a few days after the bombing even Walter Cronkite admitted that just possibly US foriegn policy is partly to blame and that the American people have to take a long hard look at the things America does abroad. This is coming from a man that is far more educated on these matters than either you or I... (he has reported on more wars/conflicts than I have even been alive to witness) Above all else I believe that he loves his country... and even HE admitted that some things have to change. His general message was that as long as the west breeds disenfranchisement - we are going to have people hate us.

I myself get so ANGRY when i hear westerners say "they don't care" about slave labour in the third world. If i get this angry can you imagine how the people that actually work in these places must feel? We get rich off of their blood. Yes thats VERY fair.

10% of the world controls 90% of it's wealth. It does so on the backs of the poor. Don't tell me there isn't any disenfranchisement there.

 

[SunTzu]

Maybe we should just stop helping everyone.
Lets let everyone die from hunger, hell the terrorists will be pissed off at us for not getting involved the fly a damn planes into some buildings.
I wish everyone would make up their damn mind. Do they want our help or not!

 

[SunTzu]

Everyone can't be equal, financially.
Maybe if the poor people would've done good in school and tried to make a living for themselves. Go to a college somewhere get their degree and make money they wouldn't have anything to ***** about. But they drop out and then they say its the rich whitemans fault that they dropped out.
Its a pathetic excuse that's been used forever.
Now the fundamentalist fanatic terrorists are using it to make an excuse to attack us.
How about they stop fighting and try and make their countries better instead of a **** pit.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

You have to have the opportunity to succeed...much of the world doesn't provide that.

And not all of us can be a talented and as intelligent as you...

 

[SunTzu]

Anyone can be smart. they just have to apply theirselves.
You have no reason not to succeed in a country where education up to graduating from high school is paid for.
Its your fault if you can't do anything in highschool to go on to make a good living, or you could just have a learning disability.
My cities filled with drop outs and drug addicts. And i know that people have a choice to succeed.
If the people who don't make good grades, that somehow graduate school with like a 2.0GPA its because they ****ed around in school and never studied.
I mean hell the nation does need a good Mcdonalds worker now and then
Thanks for the compliment kitten

 

[scorch]

I read somewhere that british victims familys of the Sept 11 attack is recieving some money for trauma etc. Im not sure if this applys to the americans as well. But IMHO, thats one of the dumbest things i have heard.

If someone was to die in a car crash, would their family recieve a huge amount of money? No! Apparently, 100 people die a day in car crashes, (im not sure if thats just america, or the whole world), lets see, that makes 36500 a year, 365000 a decade, thats far more tragic than 5000 people in a terrorist attack.

 

[sonorakitch]

Redwolf,

I highly suggest you become proficient in English before attempting to counter my simple and non-aggressive statement.

Disenfranchise \Dis`en*fran"chise\, v. t. To disfranchise; to deprive of the rights of a citizen.

Can you illustrate one example of how the U.S. has attempted to deprive the rights of any Afghani or Saudi? Please don't bring up Palestine because this has nothing to do with the Al Queda network. The bottom line is that these terrorists targeted America because for many radical muslims, the US stands in the way of Muslim domination. Just be lucky you don't live in the most prominent country on earth, or your CN Tower might not be standing anymore.

"Thats the problem with non-Americans on this board. They attempt to refute decent arguments with garbage"

Now, just listen to my statement above. Ridiculous, isn't it?

Again, you have provided no alternative to globalization. Can you?

~Chris

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

"What 200,000" that died was reported in the New York times on November 4th. They died in El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua, killed and/or raped by terrorists trained by America in Georgia military bases, with money raised by selling weapons to Iran and Iraq. It was called Contra-gate, and while not as titillating as Clinton's Zippergate, it will be shown to be one of America's most disgusting disgraces, just as soon as Bush Jr. is overruled by the courts and forced to release the Reagan papers...

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by sonorakitch
Redwolf,

I highly suggest you become proficient in English before attempting to counter my simple and non-aggressive statement.

Petty insults. Dont agree with me then make fun of my writing ability. One more reason as to why I hate right wingers.

Can you illustrate one example of how the U.S. has attempted to deprive the rights of any Afghani or Saudi? Please don't bring up Palestine because this has nothing to do with the Al Queda network. The bottom line is that these terrorists targeted America because for many radical muslims, the US stands in the way of Muslim domination. Just be lucky you don't live in the most prominent country on earth, or your CN Tower might not be standing anymore.

I believe that Palestine is part of the reason. You can claim that it has nothing to do with the Al Queda network but they may disagree. It probably has very little to do with Bin Ladin himself, yet his followers may be a different story.

I think that many muslims consider themselves "brothers" and to some extent an attack on one population is an attack on them all. They see the injustices being committed against the palestinians and they blame the US for this.. which breeds anger and hatred. However unjustified you may think this is it could in fact be the reason why people hate.

Or how about the economic sanctions against Iraq? You can claim that it is Saddam that uses these sanctions to make his people hate the west - but the fact of the matter is still that the west implements these sanctions. Another ralying point for fanatics to use.

While the US and the Soviets played their "super power games" in Afghanistan during the 80's, millions of Afghanis were growing up in poverty in refugee camps. It was the fundamentalists that built schools and helped educate and feed these people. They were using them for their own selfish means - but the fact remains that they channeled that sense of hopelessness and created fanatics.

People that live in desperation look for people to blame... they look around and what do they see? A western population getting rich off of their backs... And the fact is that we do nothing to change it - we don't even CARE - as can be witnessed by our ongoing debate.

How about oil? What is a barrel of oil worth right now? like $25 a barrel?! That's RIDICULOUSLY cheap when you consider the fact that it is a non-renewable resource and we only have enough for the next 50 years or so at current consumption levels. Our economies DEPEND on oil... it makes our world go round. What would happen if OPEC decided to start charging us what the oil is REALLY worth to us? (following the capitalistic theory that you can charge whatever the market will bear) The US would invade and take it from them - i guarentee it.

Again, you have provided no alternative to globalization. Can you?

An alternative to globalization? I would like to see a world where corporations can not sell items in the western democracies that are made from slave labour in the third world.

It wouldn't be the BEST solution and maybe our standard of living would decrease... but it is the RIGHT solution. What is more important? People's lives or money? IF the answer is money than I'm afraid there is no point in us arguing anymore.

 

[Scrimshaw]

Redwolf,

I highly suggest you become proficient in English before attempting to counter my simple and non-aggressive statement.

Disenfranchise \Dis`en*fran"chise\, v. t. To disfranchise; to deprive of the rights of a citizen.

Can you explain what you mean better? Disfranchise and Disenfranchise can be used as synonyms according to Webster's current dictionary and I don't understand how using the word disenfranchise makes redwolf an incompetent writer in english.

"Thats the problem with non-Americans on this board. They attempt to refute decent arguments with garbage"

That's the problem with some(not all) americans on this board. Anything that opposes your views (which are often garbage as well) must be garbage.

Again, you have provided no alternative to globalization. Can you?

Just because we can't think of anything better doesn't make it a good thing. Lot's of crappy ideas are still used simply because we can't think of another way yet.

 

[joespaniel]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
"What 200,000" that died was reported in the New York times on November 4th. They died in El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua, killed and/or raped by terrorists trained by America in Georgia military bases, with money raised by selling weapons to Iran and Iraq. It was called Contra-gate, and while not as titillating as Clinton's Zippergate, it will be shown to be one of America's most disgusting disgraces, just as soon as Bush Jr. is overruled by the courts and forced to release the Reagan papers...

Regardless of wether or not this is fact or fiction, those people would have done the same things to each other no matter what.

When the CIA and the Army did train guerillas, I f#cking guarantee that rape, torture and murdering innocents were not taught by the American instructors. I was trained at Ft. Benning, Georgia.

The "freedom fighters" in Central/South America learned that on their own.

The only disgrace in your story, for America, was trading arms to the bastards in Iran.

Red Wolf - I dont think you are a villain. I think you have anger toward my country for misguided reasons. However, we have walked in different shoes, not everyone sees eye to eye on everything. Nor should they.

I for one get very angry when people post things that are cruel and thoughtless. I will respond accordingly. But this doesnt necessarily apply to you.

Having said that, I respect your opinions, and will not belittle them nor try to demonize you for them. Ever. I will provide proof if I can to argue them, but not insult them.

Most importantly -

Dont take this sh!t personaly. This forum is for fun, and not meant to be taken seriously. Anyone who does is probably the kind of person who listens to Rush Limbaugh. And then I really will have to insult them!

Scrimshaw - Good post!

 

[SunTzu]

Be American Buy American
be canadian buy chinese

 

[joespaniel]

Red Wolf - In your reply to Sonorakitch you said the US would invade the middle-east to secure oil supplies, if OPEC raised the price.

Thats exactly what I mean about saying silly things. The US would NEVER attack a country militarily for a reason like that. Do you think so little of us?

The American public wouldnt stand for aggression like that.

In this country, the public opinion majority dictates. No one would support such a farce. Nobody in the Army would accept an order to mobilize for such a horrible cause. There would be mass-desertion.

The government would be paralyzed.

Im old enough to remember the last time OPEC did that. Know what the US did? We waited in long gas lines. No one was bombed and occupied.

OPEC would be the target of massive economic embargo and trade war. But I guarantee not one person would be touched by the US military.

 

[animepornstar]

american helicopters killed over 2000 civilians in panama city when they were hunting noriega.

 

[amadeus]

At least the next time that OPEC tries to screw with us, we've got ANWAR to drill in.