Do you think North Korea qualifies as communist?

[Azale]

Ignorance to this degree should be though

I think we should just leave Pasi be in his own little world.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

Regardless of any evidence we present that North Korea is a totalitarian Stalinist state, you will have a convenient excuse to ignore or attempt to "refute" that evidence with North Korean state propaganda.

In short, you're a lost cause. There is absolutely no room for reason with you. That is why there's no point in continuing tihs discussion.

Or, if it is good evidence, it'll be conveniently censored by his government.

Pasi, you're clearly in the minority here, surely that should be enough to at least make you rethink you might just be wrong in all this. Or are we the brainwashed westerners?

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

It was pretty nice believing that insulting and flaming people was forbidden, and that the moderators actually believed in doing their jobs, for a while.

@ K the S: It is not my fault the Chinese government sees fit to censor things. In approximately ten days, I will be in Almaty. Approximately ten days after that, for a total of about three weeks, I will be able to spare sufficient time to once again debate this with you. If you would so care to present adequate evidence (which I am confident you cannot), the Kazakh government does not have internet censors in place and we can do so once again. I will signal sometime in early August when I am ready.

I have no problem being in the minority with my opinions (the use of the word "opinion," instead of a more concrete term such as "knowledge," should in and of itself be evidence of an open mind), as that's part of the fun in life. Where's the joy in going along with everybody else?

 

[Azale]

Ok, seriously. If you TRULY believe this, then try and enlighten me. Its just that, out of everything I have ever known and truly believed, North Korea's government sucking is just about the only thing I am COMPLETELY CERTAIN of.

And saying I was sickened by your support of the regime isnt trolling, neither is saying that you might be wrong or ignorant on the issue.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Azale...how was your vacation in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea? Your residency there?

Oh, that's right. You're willing to convict a people and a system that you have never yourself seen other than through news reports on BBC or CNN that always begin with "it is rumoured that..." or "many believe that..."

 

[amadeus]

I have no problem being in the minority with my opinions (the use of the word "opinion," instead of a more concrete term such as "knowledge," should in and of itself be evidence of an open mind), as that's part of the fun in life.

This thread would be funny if there weren't four million dead Koreans at the hands of your best friends.

 

[Azale]

BBC, CNN, Discovery, several independent books, several LIBERAL magazines, newspapers, history books (not school text of course), eyewitness accounts from North Koreans themselves, several documentaries. The mind-control policies of the regime are something that fascinates me, in a way you are transfixed by a car crash on the highway.

Yes, I am fairly confident the DPRK is perhaps the worst regime on the face of the planet. Have you been to North Korea by chance?

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

No, of course not, but you're willing to convict that which you do not know, while I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Tell me, are you aware of the timeless story of the Hearst media empire in the 1930s? Here's a great link on it. I mean, I know you're going to read perhaps the first line, line and a half at most, before condemning it as a biased piece of trash, but still try to give it a read.

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=28616

 

[Azale]

Faintly, but the 30's and now are different time eras entirely...tell me about it if you want.

My opinion on this has been shaped by the evidence thats been presented to me over time, and nothing has ever been presented to the contrary except from the state-run media in North Korea. Therefore, its more logical for me to despise and hate the North Korean regime.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

No, of course not, but you're willing to convict that which you do not know, while I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Considering the amount he says he studies NK, I wouldn't say he doesn't know anything about them?

Or are you saying you can only know a country if you've been to it?

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Or are you saying you can only know a country if you've been to it?

To one extent or another, yes. It's impossible to acquaint oneself with a culture and a people unless having visited the country. Many people slander the "personality cult" in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, while failing to understand that in Korean culture great leaders tend to be revered as paternal figures by the entire population. With this cultural idiosyncrisy in mind, it's not difficult to accept that free-thinking Koreans see nothing wrong with, for example, portraits of their leader on subway cars. It's not a "personality cult," it's simply a cultural trait.

Now I must sign off. I have a 45 hour train to Urumqi to catch and I've just been killing time here. See you in three weeks.

 

[luiz]

There are no reliable sources that will back you up on this matter. The only ones that matter have a vested interest in keeping your opinion of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea negative, and those that don't matter couldn't possibly have the credentials to know anything.

What I stated is the consensus among all experts on international relations. Since Brazil is an irrelevant nation, I can guarantee that brazilian international relations experts have no vested interests regarding NK whatsoever.

That's great, well as soon as you get your "friend" here on these forums, or in contact with me somehow, then saying such might contribute something. Otherwise, your "friend" is a useless source of information. You may as well tell me you read it on p430 of a book in your public library.

Try going to NK then. What I stated is a fact, foreigners are not allowed to take pictures without previous authorization from the gvt. Ask anyone who has been there, or try to go there yourself (since you're in Beijing it's not that far).
It's a well known and documented fact that NK is probably the most censored nation in the globe.

Do not twist my words. Have you not read any of my Democratic People's Republic of Korea oriented posts in other threads? I state emphatically that there are and have been hardships in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea since the Soviet Union collapsed. The difference between you and I is that I'm not some ignorant philistine going around ranting "OMG DICTATORR STARVING HIS POEPLE LOLZ" and instead choose to examine rationally the causes of the hardships the people of the DPRK are currently experiencing. The famine is over, it is receding. It will take some time to reach pre-1994 levels of prosperity (need I remind you, for most of the two nations' history as separate states, the DPRK was far more prosperous than the ROK), but they're getting there.

Other nations also depended strongly on tarde with the USSR, why didn't they go through massive famines like NK?

Simple answer: they changed their idiotic economic models and didn't have the draconian and inept leadership of NK.

And since the war of Korea the Southern part has developed in a far greater pace. Today it has an european level of development while NK has a sub-Sahaaran level of development. The brazilians who went there were shocked by the poverty, and Brazil isn't exactly Monaco.

 

[Lotus49]

This is really a sad discussion - that I feel is disrespectful of the North Korean people. I don't consider myself the most 'compassionate person' on the planet, but anyone with a soul should feel terribly sorry for the people of NK. And to think that someone is spewing such total crap lies about what life there is like - is just absolutely disgusting.

At least have some respect - for human beings that have been dealt a very, very unfortunate hand in life. And take all your ideological propaganda, and shove it....

 

[bhsup]

Real world example of what communism is: Yep

Pie in the sky ivory tower wishful thinking of what they think communism should be: Nope

 

[Gelion]

My view on the issue? Its all here:

It could also have something to do with the fact that Communism has never actually been put into practice, nor is it even really a political system. It was Marx's theory of history. He just assumed Communism was the inevitable end result. So far, he's been proven wrong.

A few power-hungry individuals, such as Lenin, decided "Hey, this is a pretty good tool to rally the poor masses around so we can usurp power, lets say we're trying to bring it about so they'll follow us."

And so they set about it. Of course, none of the "Communist" governments have ever been "Communist". It was, for example, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. This is mostly because Marx never stated how the Proletariat would magically come to power. These governments never clarified it, because they never intended to allow it to happen. Why? Because if everyone is "equal", not only does the specialized job economy upon which all modern society relies collapse, but so does government (the natural end state of Communism, as defined by Marx, is a classless and stateless and composed of total equality; effectively an Anarchy), as any government official would be out of a job, and out of power, which is why all this was done in the first place.

So, is North Korea "Communist", in the ideal sense of the word? No. Has there ever been a "Communist" country, in the ideal sense of the word? No.

Is North Korea a brutal, Stalinist regime bent on oppressing the masses and seeking ever greater power and glory for itself? You bet. Close enough for a "yes" since that's what most other "Communist" countries were anyway (and it's a nice catch-all label for them and their ilk): the tool for a single charismatic man to subjugate all others to his bidding while distracting them with fairy-tales of liberation.

 

[nonconformist]

Forgive me, I did not see this post initially.

You must find alternate sources. I am in Beijing, and both the websites you cited are blocked by Chinese censors. In any event, Wikipedia is a poor source for information on the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, since it flies in the face of the concept of expertise and is subject to the whims of the ignorant Western masses who are deliberately misinformed and lied to about the DPRK by corporate and political interests in the Western world.

How about footage smuggled out of North Korea, of the North Koreans executing criminals?

Standard North Korean execution; tieing the victim to a post, with rope around the head/eyes, chest, and knees, in fromt of a readily dug grave.
Then, a group of three riflemen,. from a distance of two metres, fire at each of the ropes, head, chest, and knee, each volley cutting the nextg rope, until the corpse falls into the grave and the grave filled.

The crime? Attempting to escape North Korea.

 

[Babbler]

Pasi, most leftists - nay, sane human beings - have realized that North Korea - nay, the entire "communist" bloc (Soviet Union, PRC et al.) has been a great failure. Elections are a sham, there really is a personality cult and entire mountainsides are used for prisions. The North Koreas are staving, supplied only with Chinese and American aid. They are developing nuclear weapons because that the only way any of the great powers would care about them.

I have admit - I laugh reading this thread.

 

[nonconformist]

Pasi, most leftists - nay, sane human beings - have realized that North Korea - nay, the entire "communist" bloc (Soviet Union, PRC et al.) has been a great failure. Elections are a sham, there really is a personality cult and entire mountainsides are used for prisions. The North Koreas are staving, supplied only with Chinese and American aid. They are developing nuclear weapons because that the only way any of the great powers would care about them.

I have admit - I laugh reading this thread.

I seem to remember that in another thread, Pasi's "evidence" consisted of a person he was in contact with on another forum, claiming to be from North Korea (despite NK having no internet).
The forum was www.soviet-empire.com or something.

 

[Spartan117]

did anyone see that video on cnn yesterday?

I thought it to be very disturbing

it was released in like 2005 by some North Korean guy who fled North Korea

what are our opinons on the future of North Korea...will some countries get the UN to invoke "chapter 7"? what will happen?

#chapter 7- states that UN will use military force to disarm North Korea

the UN unanimously said North Korea is too stop testing weapons etc..and NK rejected

i do not think North Korea qualifies as being communist and agree with the posts saying this

 

[Whomp]

Can I call it a family run totalitarian government?

How about footage smuggled out of North Korea, of the North Koreans executing criminals?

Standard North Korean execution; tieing the victim to a post, with rope around the head/eyes, chest, and knees, in fromt of a readily dug grave.
Then, a group of three riflemen,. from a distance of two metres, fire at each of the ropes, head, chest, and knee, each volley cutting the nextg rope, until the corpse falls into the grave and the grave filled.

The crime? Attempting to escape North Korea.

I saw that today.

You don't need to understand russian to understand these pictures..

http://www.tema.ru/travel/choson-1/