DoC Domination Challenge

[Manco Capac]

That'd be much appreciated Tachyw.

Stopping off-topic comments or creating a thread.

 

[Manco Capac]

I've tested over a large number of games and it appears that AIs will not volunatrily vassalize anymore, even if you have good relations and they are lower in Power.

Only capitulated vassals and AIs asking for help when at war
with someone else will give you the option now.

I do have a few things to say about this.
It's noticeable with the AI and it appears to affect them as well.
Normally, in the previous versions built directly on Rhye's mechanics,
it wasn't uncommon to spawn as America and see Britain or France with 5 vassals already.
In the current version, the same civs will only typically have 1 or 2 at most.
Facing very large coalitions on spawn should be a thing of the past now, as I tested with my Brazil game; my starting war was much more manageable than before.
But as a tradeoff, the big civs are more dangerous than before.

Sadly experience can be misleading. I have seen many cases of mechanics that seemingly take a deterministic direction but ended to be off of the right factors.

What Leoreth may talk about are two XML variables:

1) Attitude threshold for either vassalization or resource demand (yeah same variable for two mechanics).
2) Increased resistance to capitulation

What I was referring to is of a deeper laying in the code, the hardcored SDK (or DLL as people call it here) where it certainly uses the XML values to give flavor. The hardcoded part is the one that defines the rules of vassalization and capitulation. And from what I recalled, both were based on the same function, but capitulation had a special check knowingly called "You're joking, right..."

Anyways, I'm lazy for the moment (long day). Will take an old post of mine I wrote for some jerk.

First, thanks for your article about the AP. Extensively used I can assure you.

Can you release your save? That'll help.

Capitulation boils down to two levels of check in form of denials.

1) The first check that has priority is like "We're fine on our own!" or "We're afraid of your enemies!".
The first one is the most important and the most common. Also the one that annoys people because it is tied to all nations in the world.
IIRC, there's a calculated threshold of 2/3*(SumOfAllPowers/#players) and if the one is over that threshold, that potential capitulee will refuse any capitulation because "they feel confident" in their own power. The problem of that denial arises when you left alive a bunch of devastated vassals with few cities (or crappy) with an immensely weak army. That plummets the threshold and impede your future capitulations. Peacevassaling works same for the same denial.

2) The second check is "You're joking, right!" denial, which is basically a thing for capitulation only, not peacevassaling. It's basically tied to War Success system where once you reach the threshold of 40 points, the AI is willing to relinquish power. It's basically a denial that says do damages before considering we have lost.

How War Success is calculated?

There's a balance Sheet for both sides and a substraction is done. Positive WSuccess on your side and negative on the capitulee side.

Attacking and win ==> 4 points
Defending and win ==> 3 points
Capture a city ==> 10 points
Capture a worker or settler ==> 1 points
Nuke ==> always 10 points per explosion
Units in Ships ==> 0 points
Workers/Settlers that accompany some escort ==> It is an amalgam of attacking a unit plus the # of non combat units captured.
Example: Won over an archer and captured two workers at the same time is worth 6 war success points.

And that covers all in a nutshell.

There are also the factors as increased resistance (XML value) that comes with certain leaders (most known is Genghis) and number of war allies that border the pot. capitulee, but that is advanced capitulation knowledge.

To not worry about Pacal II peacevassaling, just beg some gold (to neutralize the war dec once peacevassaling occurs) or bribe someone on the one you think may become a master.
Never mind that last statement. Both of you are war allies.

 

[DC123456789]

Pertaining to the spawning civ. For instance, I have just discovered around the Sinai, there are two tiles labeled historical for Arabia, which often is at war with me with either Egypt of Babylon. If historical tiles don't count for liberation forces, then it means I can hide my units there while baiting Bedouins there and kill them safely without fear of losing units.

Indeed, if historical tiles are not discounted, then avoiding the loss of units is far far more difficult against civs with large core and historical region.

But I believe historical tiles don't count. Just need the green light from the connoisseur.

Historical tiles are safe. I think defending the Sinai as Egypt against Arabia is a working strategy, though I haven't tried it yet.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Sadly experience can be misleading. I have seen many cases of mechanics that seemingly take a deterministic direction but ended to be off of the right factors.

What Leoreth may talk about are two XML variables:

1) Attitude threshold for either vassalization or resource demand (yeah same variable for two mechanics).
2) Increased resistance to capitulation

What I was referring to is of a deeper laying in the code, the hardcored SDK (or DLL as people call it here) where it certainly uses the XML values to give flavor. The hardcoded part is the one that defines the rules of vassalization and capitulation. And from what I recalled, both were based on the same function, but capitulation had a special check knowingly called "You're joking, right..."

Anyways, I'm lazy for the moment (long day). Will take an old post of mine I wrote for some jerk.

The AI now isn't any more resistant to capitulation than before,
only more resistant to voluntary vassalization, as Leoreth wrote.
In my Ottoman Domination game, I capitulated Russia after only 1 city capture and a couple kills,
but the context was that before they entered war with me, some time ago,
they concluded a peace with the Prussians who had the upper hand and drained most of their forces in the previous conflict.

This is on the most recent SVN version, of course (at the time),
but as I've tested with some Mughal runs on the most up-to-date SVN version, still very much applicable.

 

[Manco Capac]

Historical tiles are safe. I think defending the Sinai as Egypt against Arabia is a working strategy, though I haven't tried it yet.

 

[Manco Capac]

The AI now isn't any more resistant to capitulation than before,
only more resistant to voluntary vassalization, as Leoreth wrote.
In my Ottoman Domination game, I capitulated Russia after only 1 city capture and a couple kills,
but the context was that before they entered war with me, some time ago,
they concluded a peace with the Prussians who had the upper hand and drained most of their forces in the previous conflict.

This is on the most recent SVN version, of course (at the time),
but as I've tested with some Mughal runs on the most up-to-date SVN version, still very much applicable.

Yes, that is because peacevassal (the gamey term) is all about their strength, their empire size and their attitude towards the future master (that is the attitude threshold I talked about). Capitulation doesn't care about attitude.

I may have a later quick look into the code of DoC and make a quick comparison. I may get surprises. Nothing is better than a clear and undisputable code.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

This will require someone else to double-check and cross-examine, but Historical tiles are NOT safe.
Remember that the flip map for a civilization is separate from the stability map.

 

[The Diocletian]

Thanks Tachy. You are always an illuminating light to gameplay mechanics.

So I should essentially go around with my stack and try and bait units out of cities?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Thanks Tachy. You are always an illuminating light to gameplay mechanics.

So I should essentially go around with my stack and try and bait units out of cities?

If you can catch units in the field with their pants down, you won't have to worry about dealing with pesky fortification bonuses.
But this takes planning and is much easier with Electricity and good espionage.
I like tailing the enemy's main stack with a Great Spy, as they can't be caught and can keep up with most SoDs.

Otherwise, you should try to park on a hill outside a city and attack directly.
Make sure you have 2 GGs in each stack at the least.
A stack-breaking Siege Unit with CR3 and going up the Drill line.
(If you are Spain, your secret UU is actually default CR3 Bombards & Cannons)
(If you are China or England, you have the option to use CKNs or Redcoats instead)
And a Super-Medic for your second GG unit, who should reasonably not see any combat.

 

[Leoreth]

But I believe historical tiles don't count.

That's right.

What Leoreth may talk about are two XML variables:

1) Attitude threshold for either vassalization or resource demand (yeah same variable for two mechanics).

That's what I was talking about.

What I was referring to is of a deeper laying in the code, the hardcored SDK (or DLL as people call it here) where it certainly uses the XML values to give flavor. The hardcoded part is the one that defines the rules of vassalization and capitulation. And from what I recalled, both were based on the same function, but capitulation had a special check knowingly called "You're joking, right..."

DLL is the right term. SDK means software development kit and only refers to the required source files to compile the DLL.

That said, there isn't much special magic going on there. It's mainly the order in which the various criteria are checked that would be subject to modification. Most of them are directly associated with XML values of some kind.

 

[Manco Capac]

Someone told me that regular DoC does have no world builder, but it is not the case. My future games will be played on the same edited scenario that adds Lock Modified Assets.

But if the anti-cheat is already available, can someone lead me to it? I don't release game saves so it can't be seen. I want them to be seen. But I refuse to play with worldbuilder on. Question of principle. POV.
I was a HoFer and was conditioned like that with BUFFY mod.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Someone told me that regular DoC does have no world builder, but it is not the case. My future games will be played on the same edited scenario that adds Lock Modified Assets.

But if the anti-cheat is already available, can someone lead me to it? I don't release game saves so it can't be seen. I want them to be seen. But I refuse to play with worldbuilder on. Question of principle. POV.
I was a HoFer and was conditioned like that with BUFFY mod.

Tachywaxon, considering that the game is mostly played on the SVN version,
and that we are all essentially beta testers in a sense, the Worldbuilder is an essential tool in some respects.
You'd have to wait for a full release before any kind of stringent anti-cheat protection can be deliberated on.

 

[merijn_v1]

IIRC, the WB is only disabled in multiplayer mode. I haven't seen any mod in which the WB is disabled.

 

[Manco Capac]

IIRC, the WB is only disabled in multiplayer mode. I haven't seen any mod in which the WB is disabled.

Well, unless you are referring to the sisters of the original RFC, plenty of mods allow No Worldbuilder since it's the option "No Modified Assets". The problematic is people have new Assets being on 1.12 (I think that's the present version) and that means they can't see my anti-cheat games. And I can't play on the latest because it can't be classified on the old dom list. And mercenaries original mechanics loss plus some religion modifications are too hard hit. Not to mention more punishing stability system.

Anyways, doesn't matter, I'll just release next time some GIF of the final screen where we see the log.

 

[merijn_v1]

Never new that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Vikings

Finish Date: 1880
Score: 6996 (palendrome score!)
Settings: Monarch, Normal, 3000 BC
Vassals: Portugal, Ottomans, Dutch, Russia, Egypt
Version: Latest, as of 9-27-2013

Upon spawn, I was greeted with a powerful Western Roman Empire & Byzantine Empire.
Settled Goteborg, Vasa & Dublin twiddling my thumbs for awhile, teching Civil Service & Guilds.
When I was ready with enough Huskarls, I went on a tear in Britain, and subsequently gained a tech lead.
Founded Protestantism in the 1100s and went to war against France & Spain as I converted although I soon
abandoned it as I teched Liberalism and flooded the New World with Riflemen+Cavalry+Cannon conquerors.
Inflicted a few losses on Maya & Inca, and left them alone, although I capitulated the Aztecs.
At around the same time, Western Rome collapsed and the Ottomans inherited all their territories.
I turned all my Huskarls into Riflemen and charged eastward, eventually capitulating them.
Turning back west, I kicked Portugal off the continent and capitulated them too, a fate the Dutch would follow in the subsequent century.
From then on, I was continually warring against all sorts of civs so I'll give you the short list:
Moors, HRE, Prussia, America, Russia (capitulated), Greece, revived Spain, Italy, revived Byzantine Empire, revived France, Maya and yeah.
The game was ended by Settler spamming North America, which I was the undisputed master of but I realized I had killed too many civs, putting the land limit at 28%.
After capitulating Egypt to replace my collapsed Aztec vassal, I granted independence to the Moors, who put the land limit back at 26% and that's how history was made.

Arabia was my best friend for the entirety of the game.
They had Ethiopia as a vassal, but they both ended up collapsing.
Arabia was my Defensive Pact partner for awhile.
China was the patron of Iran and dueled with the Mughals throughout the latter half of the game (post-Mongol collapse) over Transoxiana and Afghanistan.
China had successfully kicked the Mughals out of Transoxiana, but the Mughals
were carving up Iran very quickly and efficiently; on the turn I won, the Iranians collapsed.

 

[The Diocletian]

Can I receive a little help for this win? Arabia/Monarch/Normal 600 AD 1.11

Start was normal, flipped Byzantine possessions, Byzantines declared war in response. Took the spawned Camel Archer stack and headed west to raze Benghazi and capture Tarabulus to prevent an Egyptian respawn.

Stopped the Seljuks cold at Baghdad while building a stack of Trebs and Heavy Swordsmen. Bribed a newly spawned Turkey on a Mongol-weakened Russia with Paper, who then collapsed. While Turkey was invading Russia, I declared with my stack and forced Turkey (who had not taken Constantinople) out of their native lands, and then proceeded to take Constantinople and Athens. Turkey offered to capitulate, but I didn't feel like taking the stability hit from having to liberate their cities, so I just took peace, expecting them to collapse. Meanwhile Iran spawned at war with me and sent some small stacks to take Baghdad to no effect. Currently crushing them.

Built University of Sankore, so I'm trying to avoid the Liberalism line until the last moment.

My question is: where do I go from here? I don't want to turtle till tanks, because that's a snooze. I have a comfortable tech lead, but everyone but the Mughals and Mali hates me. What should I do? Wage an anti-crusade against the Europeans?

Also, Tomorrow's Dawn, stop being so good.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Can I receive a little help for this win? Arabia/Monarch/Normal 600 AD 1.11

Start was normal, flipped Byzantine possessions, Byzantines declared war in response. Took the spawned Camel Archer stack and headed west to raze Benghazi and capture Tarabulus to prevent an Egyptian respawn.

Stopped the Seljuks cold at Baghdad while building a stack of Trebs and Heavy Swordsmen. Bribed a newly spawned Turkey on a Mongol-weakened Russia with Paper, who then collapsed. While Turkey was invading Russia, I declared with my stack and forced Turkey (who had not taken Constantinople) out of their native lands, and then proceeded to take Constantinople and Athens. Turkey offered to capitulate, but I didn't feel like taking the stability hit from having to liberate their cities, so I just took peace, expecting them to collapse. Meanwhile Iran spawned at war with me and sent some small stacks to take Baghdad to no effect. Currently crushing them.

Built University of Sankore, so I'm trying to avoid the Liberalism line until the last moment.

My question is: where do I go from here? I don't want to turtle till tanks, because that's a snooze. I have a comfortable tech lead, but everyone but the Mughals and Mali hates me. What should I do? Wage an anti-crusade against the Europeans?

Also, Tomorrow's Dawn, stop being so good.

Not as good as blizzrd or Jusos. I'll shadow your game.

EDIT: What version is it? I CtD'ed trying to run your save.

Anyways, since I can't run your save.
Don't delay Liberalism. 1600+ Liberalism is very late and you run the risk of having an opposing civ beat you to it.
Set Espionage to Vikings or China, they usually go for Military Tradition early, and you should (barring a few circumstances), not tech it yourself.
Capitulating Russia should be a vassal priority. Get them while they're weak, then feed them Settlers.
Turtling till Tanks is a good idea; also make sure you have many Settlers and escorts available in spots where you'll plan to claim land.
Don't settle them until you're around 18-20% of the land limit, then pump culture.

 

[Manco Capac]

Can I receive a little help for this win? Arabia/Monarch/Normal 600 AD 1.11

Start was normal, flipped Byzantine possessions, Byzantines declared war in response. Took the spawned Camel Archer stack and headed west to raze Benghazi and capture Tarabulus to prevent an Egyptian respawn.

Stopped the Seljuks cold at Baghdad while building a stack of Trebs and Heavy Swordsmen. Bribed a newly spawned Turkey on a Mongol-weakened Russia with Paper, who then collapsed. While Turkey was invading Russia, I declared with my stack and forced Turkey (who had not taken Constantinople) out of their native lands, and then proceeded to take Constantinople and Athens. Turkey offered to capitulate, but I didn't feel like taking the stability hit from having to liberate their cities, so I just took peace, expecting them to collapse. Meanwhile Iran spawned at war with me and sent some small stacks to take Baghdad to no effect. Currently crushing them.

Built University of Sankore, so I'm trying to avoid the Liberalism line until the last moment.

My question is: where do I go from here? I don't want to turtle till tanks, because that's a snooze. I have a comfortable tech lead, but everyone but the Mughals and Mali hates me. What should I do? Wage an anti-crusade against the Europeans?

Also, Tomorrow's Dawn, stop being so good.

How far Turkey did invade Russia? Did they captured some independent cities?
If they progress far, why not taking them as vassals? Yeah, I have heard about some stability hit if you got some unstable vassals, but I have rather gave up to understand how RFC works as it is much more undecipherable than other mods and the regular game.

I wished to look into the game, but I'm still on DoC version 1.10. And not willing to relearn via the newest SVN because my time is ultimately tight. And I still wish to fight for the slots taken by Blizzrd and Jusos, which is impossible with the newest SVN because how Jusos ruled them out. Auld lang syne, come back to me! T_T

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

How far Turkey did invade Russia? Did they captured some independent cities?
If they progress far, why not taking them as vassals? Yeah, I have heard about some stability hit if you got some unstable vassals, but I have rather gave up to understand how RFC works as it is much more undecipherable than other mods and the regular game.

I wished to look into the game, but I'm still on DoC version 1.10. And not willing to relearn via the newest SVN because my time is ultimately tight. And I still wish to fight for the slots taken by Blizzrd and Jusos, which is impossible with the newest SVN because how Jusos ruled them out. Auld lang syne, come back to me! T_T

That's a mechanic in the SVN version.
When you have unstable Vassals, you are penalized in the Foreign stability category.
It's not present in 1.11 and below.