Does Law Mana need a boost?

[Tasunke]

Im just wondering, if Law III gets Unyielding Order ... then what would become of the Order tier III spell? I doubt pillar of fire would rejoin the ranks of Junil so easily. If not that ... then what?

(yes, I am thinking narrowmindedly, but im fishing for ideas you may have. If none are present, I will come up with one promptly)


also, for whatever reason einherjars and pitbeasts are MADE to be copies of each other. back when einherjar had str 10, so did pitbeasts. Although back then pitbeasts were Chaos III.

Balseraph Druids that could summon pit beasts was like the most awesome thing ever.

 

[Bad Player]

I agree that valor might be better suited to a level 2 spell but I like the idea of evil things (evil civs and evil mana spheres) being more directly powerful (good counters that via cooperation which evil civs don't do so well at).

 

[Tielby]

(good counters that via cooperation which evil civs don't do so well at).

That's very theoretical. Good AI civs seem to be almost MORE likely to declare war on someone they're "friendly" with (even when the same religion and on the Overcouncil) than evil AI civs. Or maybe I'm just grumpy that my "friends" declare war on me as often as the people who are "suspicious" (or worse) with me when I start winning (getting a significantly higher score, building the Tower of Mastery, etc.).

Back on topic, I don't consider Law to be any weaker than most mana types. There are certainly some more useful ones, but Law is just about average in my book.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

just curious, which ones do you consider worse than law?

 

[cabbagemeister]

I'd consider Nature a worse sphere to use a mana node on than Law, except in special cases (you have Yvain or you're Svart and you need Poisoned Blade). Its best spell (Vitalize) can be accessed at a lower beaker cost by teching Commune with Nature and building Genesis, and not building any Nature nodes at all.

Sun is also useful only in certain circumstances where you need terraforming. Blinding Light is good, but it's FAR better to get it with Empy.

Life is quite poor overall unless you're fighting Pyre Zombies.

Except for Shadowwalk, Shadow has pretty poor spells (and Shadowwalk is best used to supplement other spells rather than as a strong spell on its own).


For these four spheres, the spells you get are admittedly better than Law's spells, though not by a whole lot. But Law's passive effect is far and away better than any of them, making Law a better choice in my mind.

 

[Neomega]

It has one of the best passive effects.

what he said.

To me, Law, shadow, chaos (too risky) sun and mind is meh, life is the worst,. I think nature II and III are very good. All recon units need that extra poison point.

 

[JonathanStrange]

OT: The Ljosalfars' are a special case with regards to Nature mana. I build at least one Nature node to better leverage the Ljos' Palace starting Nature mana. I like to start vitalizing asap with Priests, I find it better to get those ancient forests now where I need them then to wait for the Genesis Project to be built. As I also make use of Poison with Assassins, the added Nature mana node works nicely. It also helps that my Druids have Nature Affinity so the extra resource there strengthens them too.

It still is one of the least impressive offensive manas though. The Elves mana is generally unspectaular as a group(Life, Nature, Air) though, as I've said, they work well for their purpose: a defensive, eco-friendly nation with a spell here and there (Life II Blast Undead and Air II Maelstrom) that can do so heavy damage.

 

[Lone Wolf]

It's moderately useful for buffing up Ljosalfar Druids too.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

this is the first time I've ever heard anyone calling Air weak

Maelstrom alone makes it worth it in my book

 

[JonathanStrange]

Who called Air weak? Maelstrom is a powerful spell, but that doesn't redeem the Ljosalfar trinity of Nature, Air, Life manas. As a whole, they're at best adequate. I've found them useful for our purposes but when we look at manas like Death, then it's another story.

 

[Calavente]

nature only buffs ljos druids ?

doesn't it boost any druid save dwarven ones ?

Nature is very powerful :
forest defense : not always useful, but manytime, having a defender in your stack that has +25% defense just for a measly adept spell is poweful.
poison blade :
-is a given for ranger-beastmaster, assasins, shadows (+1, it's powerful)
-is also mandatory if you play FOL : fawns and satyr are quite cheap units, for their power.
-beastmasters are one of the more powerful units ingame, no weapon promo so not liable to rust nor weak to lignthing damage, no promotion against recon units...(especially for rasing stacks out of cities) so poison blade is very interesting to have, as much as enchantement.

vitalise : very powerful, but less useful as demanding a lot of micro. genesis works once, vitalise can bring tundras/floodplains into grasslands, not just into plains !!

I agree that vitalize can be done (almost) with genesis, but poison blade is soooo.

shadow :
-blur : fun but not so powerful
-shadowwalk : very powerful mid game when the culture defense is not so powerful. and very powerful when attacking a stupid city with LOTS of longbows
-summoned unit : nice but not so über IIRC.


life : ok I concede the point.
-sancitfy : good for reducing the AC
-destroy undead : fun but rarelly needed. but when you need it, it really is worht the cost;
-resurrection : on graveyard : joke. for hero : nice, but I rarely use it.


chaos
-dance of blade: again, combat wise, one powerful spell.
-mutation : I like it a loooot : it is very powerful but a bit risky : don't do it on your heros, but any other unit is fair game, especially as any priest can remove most of the negative results save "weak", "enraged" and "sensitive to fire" !! those unit you can crash as cannonballs on your next city attack to soften the best defenders so they become tractable for your more powerful units.
-wonder : nice, fun, I almost always get one for the fun.


sun :
-scorch : for getting from ice to tundra : save some vitalise time. allows to build improvements on a former unusable tile
-blind : not used yet.
-aurealis : +2affinity : mega powerful !!!


mind :
-inspiration : very powerful early game. nice late game : adept level spell.
-charm : no use for me
-domination : very very very nice, especially for taking his national units, or some priest I don't have so to make druids with them.

 

[Lone Wolf]

doesn't it boost any druid save dwarven ones ?

Yes, I'm only signling out Ljos because some posters say that they benefit more from Nature in general.

 

[CurseUppl]

Life is quite poor overall unless you're fighting Pyre Zombies.

What? Life is hardcore. It's the only thing that keeps hell terrain at bay apart from being good.

 

[Neomega]

ressurection on graveyard has an effect?

And I disagree about shadowwalk, I think it is absolutely the worst level II spell of all. To call it "very powerful" is just ludicrous. However, mistform is HN, so that's always useful.

I dont like chaos because I personally never build priests.

 

[Calavente]

ressurection on graveyard has an effect?

And I disagree about shadowwalk, I think it is absolutely the worst level II spell of all. To call it "very powerful" is just ludicrous. However, mistform is HN, so that's always useful.

I dont like chaos because I personally never build priests.

Then I understand why you don't like "mutation"

but for shadowwalk, to attack a city you need to do something about the city defense.
if you don't have catapults, magic is the solution.
fireball don't do a lot of damage per fireball to the city defense.
shadowwalk can take out some (or even all) of the defensive protection of the city, it is worthwhile.
In truth, I'd rather have 3 mages with fireII than 3 with shadow II.
but I'd rather have 1 with shadow II and 1 with maelstrom than 2 with fireII.

 

[Bad Player]

I thought someone said that the pedia entry for shadowwalk is wrong and that it only works in the field, not against city defenders.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

the pedia says it negates terrain defense, but it negates city defense ( although not culture )

 

[Worm4life]

I really don't think any mana has worse spells than Law. First level is worthless, second level is the worst summon in the game, third level is weaker than some first levels.

 

[Breunor]

I really don't think any mana has worse spells than Law. First level is worthless, second level is the worst summon in the game, third level is weaker than some first levels.

Wow, we really have different experiences. I've used valor to get literally hundreds of Xp's, I think it is a powerhouse, especially on very large maps.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Neomega]

I really don't think any mana has worse spells than Law. First level is worthless, second level is the worst summon in the game, third level is weaker than some first levels.

Valor roxxors my soxxors, and eijenhars are identical to pit beasts, except holy/unholy. They both live as long as they keep winning, although the Eijenhar civilopedia entry does not state so.

but for shadowwalk, to attack a city you need to do something about the city defense.
if you don't have catapults, magic is the solution.
fireball don't do a lot of damage per fireball to the city defense.
shadowwalk can take out some (or even all) of the defensive protection of the city, it is worthwhile.
In truth, I'd rather have 3 mages with fireII than 3 with shadow II.
but I'd rather have 1 with shadow II and 1 with maelstrom than 2 with fireII.

The problem is, shadowwalk ONLY works on cities, and usually only takes 10 - 35% defense off, if that. Fireballs work anywhere, including land to water and visa versa. Same with catapults, those can be utilized in the field. Even worse, shadow walk wears off, so you constantly have to be recasting it. It is with out a doubt in my mind the worst level II spell.