Domination on Immortal/Deity - a noob's guide

[mbbcam]

@beetle I'm in a similar position. But I believe there is something that people do from turn to turn that I have not grasped when watching videos or reading write-ups, and I suspect it is stuff that seems obvious to those who do it, but does not occur to me.

To give an example of something I had not noticed before, over the past couple of days I watched some of Moriarte's Korea LP and one of the things that struck me was how often he sold stuff for lump sums and used that to buy things immediately. I think this feeds in to the need to do things quickly -- waiting to build stuff is deadly to one's efforts. I tried this in a game yesterday, and it seemed to make quite a lot of difference. Of course, there were other factors in play, but I'm sure it helped.

I tend to be a "thinker" not a "doer", and the game I tried yesterday suggests to me that something I need to change is a tendency to wait. I suspect that it is better to do things *now*, earlier than I have been. In fact, it was striking to me that I managed to do almost everything earlier than I ever have done before. I only played 135 turns, but I built Settlers at Pop 2 in the capital, settled right on top of Luxes to cut down waiting time, sent out caravans as soon as I could for Science and Diplomacy, bought a Library in the last expo, and got National College by turn 79 -- something I could never have imagined achieving. I got to Machinery at turn 104.

The map and the neighbours were undoubtedly in my favour. I spent quite a long time with only two Archers, which was asking to be attacked, but it never happened. That was luck (and possibly the caravans plus lots of trading). But this was an occasion when I tried to do things earlier, and it did seem to help.

The mid game will be another story, as I have no idea what to do now. The XBs are about to run out of steam and Artillery feels a long way off.

 

[Lycrist_Katkiller]

Hello
I am new to the forums and want to mention that this thread/guide is great. Helped me a lot to win on immortal, but i got some questions related. I hope it's OK to use this thread as it seems to be still active

I watched Acken and peddroelm - they both are able to steal workers very very early in the game. Sometimes when I play it's impossible to steal a worker for 25 turns (it's even worse on immortal, because the AI does only have 1 city and 3 warriors to protect it and the worker). Is there a cutting point at which turn i should have at least 1 worker?

How do you guys deal with bad starts in general (isolation, no city states /otter civs to steal and farm, only each 1 luxury which happens to be in the desert)? I started like a hundred games and only a few seem playable, but most of the time one of those things happens and it seems impossible to get the game rolling at this point

 

[beetle]

Welcome to CFC @Lycrist_Katkiller!

The @Acken and @peddroelm videos are from before the last patches, and much of AI behavior that made worker steals so easy has been corrected. Nowadays it seems to me that (1) need to be playing at Deity (so that the AI has plenty of spare productions for workers and settlers); and (2) close-to-ideal poaching opportunity. Look for a lux-on-a-hill in the 2nd ring of a city where your Warrior can watch without being in line-of-sight from the city.

The default maps scripts are poor, which is why playing shared maps (like the ones posted in this thread) is so nice. OTOH, the scripts do provide enough resource balancing that things even out. Other than playing shared maps, the other things people do is use alternative map scripts. Search the forum for “Hellblazer” or “NQ Pangea”. There is also a mod called “Rotate Start Position” which is very nice.

 

[consentient]

Worker steals are still easy. You just need to practice, and use your Warrior and Scout in combination to increase the chances of getting one. Plus, you can nearly ALWAYS get a few from a CS before making peace.

 

[Lycrist_Katkiller]

Welcome to CFC @Lycrist_Katkiller!

The @Acken and @peddroelm videos are from before the last patches, and much of AI behavior that made worker steals so easy has been corrected. Nowadays it seems to me that (1) need to be playing at Deity (so that the AI has plenty of spare productions for workers and settlers); and (2) close-to-ideal poaching opportunity. Look for a lux-on-a-hill in the 2nd ring of a city where your Warrior can watch without being in line-of-sight from the city.

The default maps scripts are poor, which is why playing shared maps (like the ones posted in this thread) is so nice. OTOH, the scripts do provide enough resource balancing that things even out. Other than playing shared maps, the other things people do is use alternative map scripts. Search the forum for “Hellblazer” or “NQ Pangea”. There is also a mod called “Rotate Start Position” which is very nice.

good to know, thanks so far

Worker steals are still easy. You just need to practice, and use your Warrior and Scout in combination to increase the chances of getting one. Plus, you can nearly ALWAYS get a few from a CS before making peace.

yeah, it's still easy in general, but there a games where it's IMPOSSIBLE to get one from another CIV. Often
- because there is only 1 CIV close and they protect they worker real good (always 2 warriors / 1 warrior 1 archer close)
- because there are no other civs in 15 turns, so the worker wont be there before turn 25
- because you are super isolated
- because you could steal the worker but not espace because of the terrain

My question is: is there a point where you guys say: "if i dont have a worker working at my capital at turn X I start over?"

 

[vadalaz]

If you don't have a worker by turn X, just build or buy one. I'd say the X depends on your starting location, e.g. if you have multiple Salts or Horses, you want to have a worker earlier than on a Calendar or Trapping luxury start. You're right that worker steals are worse on Immortal, though I think typically at some point (turn 30ish) the Immortal AIs like to send their warriors to clear a nearby barb camp. A turn 35 worker steal may not be perfect, but it's still good.

You could also look for an improved tile that would be easy to steal from, pillage it and park your warrior or scout nearby. Eventually the AI will send a worker to repair the tile, so you can grab it and then wait for the next one.

 

[beetle]

Worker steals are still easy.

Agree, still easy — just not as easy as it used to be (and as show in those videos). It is rare for an AI to send out an unescorted settlers nowadays. The AIs do a better job with having Warriors near workers. But yes, worker stealing is not hard.

 

[Lycrist_Katkiller]

Agree, still easy — just not as easy as it used to be (and as show in those videos). It is rare for an AI to send out an unescorted settlers nowadays. The AIs do a better job with having Warriors near workers. But yes, worker stealing is not hard.

As I said: It's not about the AI per se. It is still easy to steal a worker if you get the opportunity - but sometimes you dont get the opportunity for 25 turns or so...

so like this one

Spoiler :

it took me like 17 turns to find the first civ but there is no way that i can steal this worker (yet). So I have to wait for another 10 turns maybe before I get a shot and then I still got to bring him home which will take another 10 turns at least
So... would you guys just start over or keep playing here?

 

[beetle]

So... would you guys just start over or keep playing here?

I agree, that is unlikely layout for early worker stealing. My own play is pretty casual, and I do not depend on catching workers. But even with this map, you might be able to poach settlers as Theodora puts them out.

 

[raider980]

I'm having similar trouble as you Lycrist. Worker steals don't seem easy to me. Also, i always feel like I should be exploring with my Scout and Warrior and not sitting there waiting for a worker steal. For example, in game I just started as China. There are no AI close enough that I would consider stealing a worker. There are some close CS but I found them early and went past before they had workers.

Another thing that messes me up is build order. I can get the S, M, S. But after that it feels like it is kind of dependent on what situation I am in. I've read people who say build Archer, Shrine, Granary, or Settler. I always seem to build the wrong things in the wrong order after those first 3. For example, again in my game as China, I got El Dorado on like T4; and its near a good spot for my first expo. So I debated whether to buy a Settler immediately and found a second city. But I decided to not do that and save it for a Paper Maker. Well, I screwed up the build order and science order after that and its T28 and I don't have an expo, only 1 archer who used to be a scout, no workers...

So I am going to go back and start again from when I found El Dorado because it is an interesting map with very interesting neighbors and I think it could be a good game. Anybody got advice on what I should do with the 500G from El Dorado: buy a settler?, buy something else? save it for a Paper Maker? something else entirely?

 

[zxcvbob]

Buy a settler! The reason being that your city stops growing while it builds a settler, and it's tough to give up a dozen turns of growth (and building other things) that early. You might have to wait a few turns until you hit 2 pop. Buying a worker or an archer can be good too, depending on your neighbors etc.

I suck at this game above Emperor level, so let's see what some other folks say

 

[KingVercingetorix]

I'm having similar trouble as you Lycrist. Worker steals don't seem easy to me. Also, i always feel like I should be exploring with my Scout and Warrior and not sitting there waiting for a worker steal. For example, in game I just started as China. There are no AI close enough that I would consider stealing a worker. There are some close CS but I found them early and went past before they had workers.

Another thing that messes me up is build order. I can get the S, M, S. But after that it feels like it is kind of dependent on what situation I am in. I've read people who say build Archer, Shrine, Granary, or Settler. I always seem to build the wrong things in the wrong order after those first 3. For example, again in my game as China, I got El Dorado on like T4; and its near a good spot for my first expo. So I debated whether to buy a Settler immediately and found a second city. But I decided to not do that and save it for a Paper Maker. Well, I screwed up the build order and science order after that and its T28 and I don't have an expo, only 1 archer who used to be a scout, no workers...

So I am going to go back and start again from when I found El Dorado because it is an interesting map with very interesting neighbors and I think it could be a good game. Anybody got advice on what I should do with the 500G from El Dorado: buy a settler?, buy something else? save it for a Paper Maker? something else entirely?

Hey Raider, I also find worker steals rather inconsistent. There are some games where I manage to steal over four from one civ early on and others where I'll manage just the one. If you're very unfortunate and don't manage a single early steal it's a case of reading the game and knowing where you should put one into your build order. There are also times where a granary in your build order is more useful than an early worker. Acken's Morocco game (on YouTube if you've never seen it) shows that working stealing isn't as important as it is made out to be.

Your China game sounds very interesting. Are you planning a Liberty CB rush into Chu-Ko-Nus? Buying a settler with your El Dorado money and settling early sounds a good idea. You could then potentially work El Dorado up until Collective Rule. The fact your city isn't growing isn't too much of an issue considering you settled it so early in the first place. Another benefit of this is that your capital never had to build a single settler if you're just planning a three city Liberty game. Production can be spent on units/Pyramids/infrastructure and your city wouldn't have stagnated during settler production.

Obviously I haven't seen your game so what I'm saying is just theory. If you fancy posting some screenshots or even the save file that would be great. Are the settings Standard, Standard, Pangaea, Deity? If so I'd give the map a try. I'm currently playing CDG #25 by Beetle but I'll check it out once I've finished my current game!

 

[Blatc]

I'm having similar trouble as you Lycrist. Worker steals don't seem easy to me. Also, i always feel like I should be exploring with my Scout and Warrior and not sitting there waiting for a worker steal. For example, in game I just started as China. There are no AI close enough that I would consider stealing a worker. There are some close CS but I found them early and went past before they had workers.

Another thing that messes me up is build order. I can get the S, M, S. But after that it feels like it is kind of dependent on what situation I am in. I've read people who say build Archer, Shrine, Granary, or Settler. I always seem to build the wrong things in the wrong order after those first 3. For example, again in my game as China, I got El Dorado on like T4; and its near a good spot for my first expo. So I debated whether to buy a Settler immediately and found a second city. But I decided to not do that and save it for a Paper Maker. Well, I screwed up the build order and science order after that and its T28 and I don't have an expo, only 1 archer who used to be a scout, no workers...

So I am going to go back and start again from when I found El Dorado because it is an interesting map with very interesting neighbors and I think it could be a good game. Anybody got advice on what I should do with the 500G from El Dorado: buy a settler?, buy something else? save it for a Paper Maker? something else entirely?

Usually, buying a settler is the best value, you just need to be careful about happiness. Beyond that, I would favour several other options over saving it for a Paper Maker, including:
*buy a scout and worker
*buy a worker and 2nd worker once you have enough gold
*buy scout and shrine if there is a valuable pantheon
My main point would be to get value from that 500 gold now, or very soon, rather than waiting, and to transfer that gold value into a different area (food and production being the most valuable). By saving to buy an early Paper Maker, you are partly holding onto gold just to spend it and slowly get gold back starting in 15+ turns. You can get more science sooner from a 2nd city, along with other value. In this specific situation, it may be worthwhile to work the El Dorado culture for a few turns to kick-start social policies (Tradition or Liberty opener); if there are multiple 3-food tiles near El Dorado, you can work the culture for a fair bit of your early game and you've got a great opportunity for a strong start.

 

[raider980]

Thanks for the advice all. Seems there's agreement so I'll try buying a settler although worker, worker sounds tempting too (since I am bad at worker stealing). I do think I tend to hoard gold and not spend it early enough - that's great advice about getting value from it now.

KingVercingetorix, Its a standard, standard, Deity, oval map game. I've posted the initial save file and a screen of ElDorado location in the spoiler. (I couldn't figure out how to put it in the spoiler but its too small to tell anything unless you open it).

The first time I went Honor and was going to wait until Chu-Ko-Nu's to attack. I've never been able to be successful with a CB rush. I can never build enough of them before the AI cities get too strong for them. Although there is one neighbor that it may be successful against this time so I might try it in my second go.

 

[Lycrist_Katkiller]

If i find a civ early, you bet my warrior stays their for the worker steal. Warrior are not very good for exploring, they are slow and you need them at some point to kill barbs at you capital

Otter problem: How do I deal with an AI that gets like 1 new unit per turn? I am fighting Assyria right now and I simply cant attack their capital because it keeps shooting out new CBs. Should I stop attacking the capital or is there anything useful I could do? I was thinking about pilliaging the tiles but I dont have horses...

 

[Blatc]

Lycrist_Katkiller, a few ideas to deal with an AI that appears to be producing 1 new unit per turn:
*shift to attacking an expo if that'll help you gain a foothold and put you in a better position to attack the capital, including using a Great General to build a citadel near the capital
*cut off their roads, which slows their units coming from other cities. I sometimes do this in advance (before DoW) on a tile that is not part of their territory. Also, I will sometimes sacrifice a scout or other very weak unit if it will help cut off their roadway/slow their units for 1-2 turns, if those are crucial turns to taking them by surprise.
*if you have enough melee units to sacrifice a few, make sure they are <100% health and move in, giving your range/seige unit a few turns to attack the city before they are the target

Otherwise, the issue may connect back to more basic stuff, like did you bring enough units (and position them well), are you too far behind in tech for your units to be effective, did you bring or capture workers to worker-bait and pillage-repair, etc.

 

[beetle]

I can get the S, M, S. But after that it feels like it is kind of dependent on what situation I am in.

Objectively, it pretty much has to be the case that SSM or MSS beats SMS. So SMS is for people who cannot figure out how they want to play! [See pages 14 and 15 in this thread for the math and the logic.]

Also, settler from El Dorado gold is hard to beat.

I am fighting Assyria right now and I simply cant attack their capital because it keeps shooting out new CBs. Should I stop attacking the capital or is there anything useful I could do?

If he is that reliable, how about using him to train up your own CBs? Once you have six with logistics and range, you should be ready to sweep the map.

 

[mcshame]

Hey guys, I'm still a relative noob with Civ V but I have completed emperor level. I am now looking to learning to win Immortal and Deity. Been watching video and reading guides and ready to give it a go. I'm planning to record my gameplay for analysis and critique, anyone willing to provide feedback at my many failures?

Will start on immortal with Poland on a small Pangea map normal speed for my first attempt.

 

[KingVercingetorix]

Thanks for the advice all. Seems there's agreement so I'll try buying a settler although worker, worker sounds tempting too (since I am bad at worker stealing). I do think I tend to hoard gold and not spend it early enough - that's great advice about getting value from it now.

KingVercingetorix, Its a standard, standard, Deity, oval map game. I've posted the initial save file and a screen of ElDorado location in the spoiler. (I couldn't figure out how to put it in the spoiler but its too small to tell anything unless you open it).

The first time I went Honor and was going to wait until Chu-Ko-Nu's to attack. I've never been able to be successful with a CB rush. I can never build enough of them before the AI cities get too strong for them. Although there is one neighbor that it may be successful against this time so I might try it in my second go.

I took a look at your save file and had a little play. I'll talk you through my first 80 turns! I'll make it a spoiler in case someone wants to play without map knowledge!

Spoiler :

Your screenshot gave me enough map knowledge for me to move my settler.

Taking three turns to settle here is worth it in my opinion. I have a monopoly on the Ivory market, two Marble and two Stones. A Stone Works will be very decent here. Settling next to/two tiles away from a mountain is also preferable. I like getting Machu Picchu in a Domination game.

My Warrior then went on to discover El Dorado and later camped outside Byzantium's borders. There were some horses there out of range of city bombardment. I was able to take a total of three workers before making peace. I made peace early in order to send a caravan for some extra science.

I'm not terribly happy with Shanghai's location but I wanted El Dorado in the first ring to work immediately. I wouldn't have had enough money to buy it. The nearby city state made settling even more difficult. I stepped on a increase pop ruin so I got to pop 2 in Beijing three turns earlier than I otherwise would have. Two cities settled on turn 13 is alright.

Collective Rule on turn 22 is the fasted I've ever managed. Playing as The Shoshone I was able to get turn 27. Researching Trapping very early for happiness and an economy boost.

Bloody barbs ruined this portion of the game for me. An early CR wasted because barbs happened to be where I wanted to settle. My settler had to take the long route round to Mt. Kilimanjaro and took 10 tuns doing so. Rolling the map again and hoping for friendlier barb locations would put me in a stronger position. Hoping to bump into a CS for some money to buy Mt. Kili.

Turn 66 and I've already completed Liberty. Three monuments, Mt. Kili and El Dorado proving to be very powerful. Wasn't able to ally or become friends with a cultural CS. To be honest I'm not even sure if this game has any. This is bad play on my behalf. I never pay enough attention on what CS are doing. I chose a GS to plant an academy. My NC is going to be late so I'll get some beakers while I can. I don't want an engineer just sitting doing nothing in my city. A CS also had a quest for generating a GS. I hit the unit cap at this point because my cities are too small. Happiness had been an issue so my cities were left with no choice but to stagnate.

Turn 67 and I just finished Construction. I had to delay it to fit in more Archers. My army consists of 6 CBs 2 Archers (they'll get upgrade ASAP) 4 Warriors and 4 Scouts. I'll sacrifice two of my Scouts in the upcoming war against Byzantium. Turn 72 is when my Caravan finishes its Constantinople run so I'll declare war in several turns. At this point I have made some terrible mistakes. All my Archers should have walked over to Mt. Kili for Altitude Training. Zero of them have. That terrain around Constantinople looks nasty and AT would have made my life much easier. I also haven't trained them up enough. Only three have been promoted. Wellington would have made good target practice.

It ended up being a fairly brief war but casualties were high. 2 CBs and 2 Warriors were lost unfortunately. 2 Scouts as well but they were lost on purpose. Getting AT and some promotions before attack would have resulted in a much smoother war. I also didn't find enough space in my build order for some Spearman.

Her Dromon helped her out a lot. She had the potential to shoot four times altogether. 2 Dromon, garrisoned CB, and city attack. Without the Dromon she wouldn't have dealt so much damage. Thanks to Vatican City I was able to found a Pantheon. I went with 'One With Nature'. It was a toss up between that and Stone Circles. I chose the former because not all my quarries were up and running. There are 2 religions left and my FPT is fairly good so hopefully I'll be able to found.


I'm not sure if I have what it takes to beat this map. My next target was meant to be Polynesia but they built The Great Wall a few turns ago. The Shoshone and Russia look very strong. So strong in fact I'm already thinking Dynamite. Machinery just after turn 100 is what I'm estimating. My science output is lacking thanks my small cities and late NC. It should however come quick enough to take Honolulu.

Hopefully some better warmongers can chime in on this map and post their first 80 turns. I know the theory on being a good player but actually being one is tough! Thanks for the map, hopefully you learned something about a CB rush. It was poorly executed but I explained how I could have improved it.

 

[Lycrist_Katkiller]

so. I played a bit more and got another question
literally every time i go to war and take a city or two (not even capitals) I find myself in a world war against at least 2 other civs - obviously impossible to win because their attack with pikemen in turn 100 and I am in the time when CBs are outdated but XBs are not in yet

how do you deal with this? I mean I cant just take one city and turtle in to wait to defend myself against two other civs... what am I doing wrong?