Doviello+

[Breez]

Hey, what about making these animal dens simply be camp upgrades, using much the same mechanism as cottages? That way you could guard against spamming while still having an appreciable number of respawning animals. These camp-upgrades could also be "tiered" so that the better the technology you have, the better animals you get.

Another very plausible option.

 

[Iceciro]

Except then they'd get screwed if there were very few Camp resources on the map.

I also don't like the idea of a bear den becoming a lion den, or anything like that. Doesn't make logical sense.

Via python and some clever if-then-else kind of coding, you could allow for MORE dens near animal-food resources (not just camps, but pigs, cows, anything the Dovellio-spawned camp animals could munch on) or just X distance away from the nearest one if there's nothing near.

Makes the Dovellio want to find and control food, but not cripple them elsewise.

Totally going to eat Dovellio+ for Fall Flat, btw.

 

[25Hour]

Except then they'd get screwed if there were very few Camp resources on the map.

I also don't like the idea of a bear den becoming a lion den, or anything like that. Doesn't make logical sense.

A lot of bonuses that civs get are highly situational-- the Lanun get screwed on maps with no water, for example. Likewise with Malakim and deserts, or Elohim and Unique Features. It doesn't seem to me that the Doviello especially need to avoid this type of bonus (although I'm assuming here that the animals are not going to be the Doviello's main strength; that should totally be Underhill's XP mechanic. Just sayin'. )

The way I figure it, the camps upgrading would simply be the Doviello ceasing to breed a particular type of animal after they become "obsolete," and starting to use that resource as food for a different animal.

 

[Valkrionn]

Jesus, go to sleep for a few hours and look what happens.

If it's variety that you want I suggest keeping the den types at a minimum, perhaps wolf, sabretooth, mammoth, bear. Lion and griffon has nothing to do in there imo. Then focus on making the animals that they produce more interesting. As of now I usual send all captured animals back to a city and cage them (crual but true), or if I already have the cage I wait until I have a big stack and then send that of to do some dmg. Instead it would be better to develope new promotions/effects to give the animals.

Wolfs
Rabies: +2 str, spread to units in stack 10% chance, -10 Health recovery, 5% chance of lossing unit. Can be cured with cure decease.
Howl: fear 30% wear off
Territory: 20% str in homeland
Feed: Food resource (pig, sheep, horse, cow, deer) Gain 30% str, 10% Health recovery, 30% wear off. Doesn't remove the resource.
Tracking: +1 mov to hunt down a unit, 20% wear off. Triggered if unit flees from combat?

The Lion Den may not last long, atm I'm using it because it already exists. Griffons I like because currently, they can spawn anywhere so the Doviello have seen them, and because they're the only animal that really *fits* the recon line.

I'd like to second the idea of having the doviello live off their findings, rather than carrying it home.

An idea. A promotion

Supplies
-------------

• Unit costs no maintenance
• unit heals x% faster in neutral/enemy territory ( the same speed as at home, or close to)
• Promotion wears off in 5 turns

This would represent the unit carrying various scavenged foods and such.
The promotion duration would be reset back to 5 whenever one of the following occurs

1. The unit defeats a living enemy in combat (takes their food)
2. The unit pillages an improvement

Essentially, as long as your army keeps killing stuff, it wouldn't cost maintenance.



A seperate idea, quite small. I'd like doviello to gain some food yield from the Fur resource. is this possible?
In the tundra areas where they start, fur is one of the most common resources. Those little beaver things leaping around. I think it's pretty logical that a feral people like Doviello would happily munch on them. Think along the lines of eskimos, who use every part of things they hunt. eating the meat, wearing the fur, etc.

Maybe just +2 food (to the local city) from a tile containing a fur resource. Not as tasty as deer, but better than starvation.

I love the promotion. I'll see if I can reapply it via pillaging, but at the least it will be in for combat.

Can't add food to JUST the fur, but like Vehem says +1 on camps is not a bad thing. Was already planning on buffing camps, but I'd have probably gone for 2 or 3 food and nerfing farms.

Almost - but I'm actually going to just give them a +1 food from camps instead. Given that they are better-than-average hunters, that means that any camp-resource (Deer, Fur, Ivory) will provide them some food. The first two fit well and it's not too hard to imagine the Doviello munching on an elephant burger if they were to meet one.

I agree, I don't think they'd have any issues with Elephant meat.

That's true, but I wanted to give Lucian a boost in importance, as well. In vanilla FFH he pretty much becomes a throwaway unit after you pick up Axemen (and maybe even before that). Base strength doesn't count as much towards inheritance as raw XP, so you pretty much need high-XP units to get an appreciable bonus (though I may want to change that eventually). If Lucian has Hero and survives until XP100 he can fuel a wave of early units with Combat 3 or higher, giving the Doviello a powerful edge in the early game and a reason not to suicide Lucian at the first opportunity.

Personally I'd be more concerned about what he does before 100XP. The main reason the Dovellio didn't get a hero axeman on Turn 1 was that it is *very* powerful and not just for boosting XP.

Again, true, but even with the hero promotion, Lucian is weaker than Orthus, and Orthus doesn't have a capital to guard.

Not sure how I feel about Lucian as a hero... Maybe have it autoacquired at Bronzeworking? Would allow for the xp bonus, while also preventing you from steamrolling early on.

Griffons before bears? :suicide::suicide::suicide:

Animal Handling, not Husbandry. Same tech you get Duin, and same tier as Smelting. My basic thoughts with the Den system as it currently exists, is to balance them along diferent tech paths. Lions come just before Axemen, and so are powerful for a short time when you get them. Bears come before Champions, and are strong for the same reason. Mammoths are :str:9, and come at Horseback Riding for the mounted line, and Griffins come at Animal Handling for the recon line. I think I'll have wolf den upgrades throughout the tech tree, as they are the animal the Doviello have the most affinity with.

Suggestion for dens - Grab some of the coding for Pirate Lairs by making them have a minimum distance in-between. Grant them different bonuses so the player/AI has incentive to build different types, ensuring a varied supply of animals. Make them only able to spawn animals when inside a city's BFC so they don't litter the landscape.

I can only introduce distance requirements if I make den building into a spell, which I haven't decided on yet. I also don't think there's any way for me to force it to be within a city's BFC to spawn, unless I handle it a completely different way that would slow the game down. For spawning, I want to stick to xml so it's all in existing loops.

Also, blackjack...and hookers!

EDIT: Suggestion for teching:

Move Lion Den to "Animal Handling" and have it have a higher cost/time to build than a Wolf Den.

Move Bear Den to Mining + Animal Handling. Bears need a cave, they don't need armor [unless we're in The Golden Compass...awesome!]. Have a *very slow* build time/high cost/low spawn rate. Bear Den is potentially the most broken of these as they will allow you to give all of your cities "The Dancing Bear" without engaging in combat. Also, a base 5 creature spawning [iisc] for free? Everywhere? A little overkill.

Mammoth Den seems alright. However, if their strength is similar to Ice's? Push back the teching or limit the spawning. IIRC, Ice had, what, 18 strength mammoths?

Griffon Weyr moved to "Hunting". While Griffons don't have the strength of Bears, they do have the ability to cross the ocean en masse early game before anyone has the ability to invade islands or continents.

I'd like to see a max cap on the numbers of animals that can be spawned via this method. Otherwise, looking at some major exponential growth.

Mammoths are 9:str: compared to an Elephants 8. Nowhere near 18.
I'm thinking of making a UU bear that is unable to build a 'Dancing Bear'... Might nerf them TOO hard though, as they have no way to capture animals now. Might end up allowing thier Ranger/Beastmaster a unique ability that captures animals for them....

Hunting is 1350 less than Animal Handling, so if getting them early is the concern I'll leave them where they are....

Handling, not Husbandry. It's the Ranger-level tech.

Thank you for pointing it out, I think people were getting confused.

I so love that you are doing this.


Random ideas:

1. Bear cavalry would be hilarious
2. Mammoth riders have to happen.
3. Sabretooths as a variant of the Tiger unitclass would be sweet.
4. Perhaps yeti or sasquatch as a variant of the Gorilla unitclass?
5. #3 would add to animal variety in cold terrain, which right now is a bear spamfest. Also makes finishing the Grand Menagerie doable.
6. Dire Wolves would be sweet.
7. Frost Giants as a northern barbarian? We have the art from Wilboman.
8. Perhaps a line of promotions that the Doviello can gain from sacrificing an animal? Eat a lion, gain courage. Eat a Bear, get strong. Etc....
9. Cannibalism might be any easy fix to represent their nutritional flexibility without requiring any additional work on your part. Just add it to the Feral trait as a free promotion.

......Must find a bear rider model.....
Yes, Mammoth Riders will be in next version. There are already wild Mammoths roaming around now, so I'll snatch all of the Mammoth Rider graphics from AoI. The other civs may end up having to shave their mammoths .
I'm about to check for other animal graphics, so we'll see... Tundra is about to be more varied anyway since there's already the one I'm going to add.
Dire Wolves are basically going to be in. It may not be represented graphically, but the Wolf Den is going to upgrade into several more advanced forms.
Frost Giants are said in the Lore to be extinct, so I don't want to mess with them.
Already thinking about promotions along those lines.... What I'd REALLY love, is to have it represented graphically... Your unit bonds with a lion, there will be a lion next to it. Don't know if I'll be able to, but I'm sure as hell going to try.
Think I'm going to go with the supply idea rather than a simple cannibalism, but might add cannibalism to the Recon units.

Hey, what about making these animal dens simply be camp upgrades, using much the same mechanism as cottages? That way you could guard against spamming while still having an appreciable number of respawning animals. These camp-upgrades could also be "tiered" so that the better the technology you have, the better animals you get.

I don't like them being camps, but I believe I'm going to have dens that grow as time goes on... The dens WILL be species specific, however. No wolf den becoming a bear den.

Also a concern I had.

Ways to limit ... spawn rate? If we look at jotnar (giants I can't spell) 3% per city you can get a LOT that way...

Could start with a .5% chance to spawn something each turn. Would require a LOT of lairs to get too many animals.

Also sine you are thinking of sacrificing a warrior (would carry over to axemen etc when warriors became obsolete?) you are tlaking a spell for creation. Can't you chose a minimum distance requirement? Say no close than 10 square to the closest Lair? After all animals need room to hunt...

Would be hard to make SO many that a .5% spawn rate would make a huge difference. Add that to the fact that animals are weak to recon which your enemy can use to capture your animals and use them against you, wouldn't be too bad.

On a sort of related note... should the Carnival work the same way for them? Seems they would have pretty easy access to many of the needed animals, making for some easy culture. Not arguing either way, just something to keep in mind.

Units spawning from lairs is all handled automatically, I just have to fill in the xml. I COULD make a new function for these lairs, but I'd probably do it in the slowest way possible so I'd rather not mess with that... They ARE limited to 5 living animals per lair atm, may decrease that.
If I do allow them to be built through sacrificing a unit, I'll allow it to all Melee/Recon/Mounted units, and put in a distance block for the nearest den.

Except then they'd get screwed if there were very few Camp resources on the map.

I also don't like the idea of a bear den becoming a lion den, or anything like that. Doesn't make logical sense.

Via python and some clever if-then-else kind of coding, you could allow for MORE dens near animal-food resources (not just camps, but pigs, cows, anything the Dovellio-spawned camp animals could munch on) or just X distance away from the nearest one if there's nothing near.

Makes the Dovellio want to find and control food, but not cripple them elsewise.

Totally going to eat Dovellio+ for Fall Flat, btw.

My thoughts exactly. If I were to do it via spell, I could probably check for a nearby food resource, and depending on the number within a 2 or 3 tile radius, decrease the radius through which it checks for another den.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

wow. simply awesome. love the beta and the concept for future upgrading. you should totally add shapeshifting and animal totems from Orbis imho... and what about changing their Wild Hunt worldspell to shapeshift all their units temporarily making them a lot stronger, instead of the current summon wolf thingie? that would be a lot more interesting imho.

 

[Valkrionn]

Meh, I just don't like shapeshifting for the Doviello... They're supposed to be wildmen, not druids. The only unit I'd be willing to do something with would be the Druid, but I'm not sure about it. I also have to think of something for the Doviello Worldspell, but I'm still not sure if I'll change it or not.

Soooooooo....... How about a den for THIS unit?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that one should totally get spawned by the random event about the cute little rabbit ( cave of the crannog - something? )

 

[Valkrionn]

Potential New Animals:

• Stag
• Hyena
• Dog
• .....White Rabbit.....
• PANDA!

 

[Iceciro]

Awww, don't put references in I'm just going to remove in a port and then get 9999 questions about "But I thought I had killer rabbits as Doviello!"

I don't like shapeshifting either, which is why I keep resisting the orbis conversion.

Werewolves at Feral Bond are different, though... gives them some lategame potential. (That, and I really hate the War Machine as a Doviello unit.)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

the War Machine is cool, it just REALLY needs to be changed to a different tech cuz machinery is about as un-doviello-ish as it gets . Iron Working would probably be good, coupled with a nerf so it's not uber for its tech level. making the Baron a Doviello hero could be nice too. stags: there was a great stag in AoI, and it was awesome. would be a welcome addition indeed

 

[Valkrionn]

lol If I were to put in the White Rabbit, it would ONLY be from the event. No way would the Doviello work with that monstrosity .

I agree about the Werewolves, just not sure about how to implement them. Already thinking about allowing Duin as a Doviello Leader, in which case only he can build himself. Steal that from Notque's Minor Leaders mod.

 

[Valkrionn]

the War Machine is cool, it just REALLY needs to be changed to a different tech cuz machinery is about as un-doviello-ish as it gets . Iron Working would probably be good, coupled with a nerf so it's not uber for its tech level. making the Baron a Doviello hero could be nice too. stags: there was a great stag in AoI, and it was awesome. would be a welcome addition indeed

Tis where I'm getting it. One warning: Any animals I add WILL be allowed to the Animal civ. As a result, they will be more varied as an empire, and the north should have more units to be found.

 

[Vehem]

......Must find a bear rider model.....

Gotta ride 'em all

 

[Valkrionn]

Gotta ride 'em all

My god, those are Doviello units on the bear! Is that already in game, or is it AoI?

Also, found a bison resource that I'd like to add... Visible to all civs, basically northern cow. Thoughts?

 

[Vehem]

My god, those are Doviello units on the bear! Is that already in game, or is it AoI?

Also, found a bison resource that I'd like to add... Visible to all civs, basically northern cow. Thoughts?

Not sure if they're old Doviello or Warhammer Norse - either way I don't think they're current. The Doviello Knight is a Bison Rider though...

 

[Valkrionn]

Right- Bear Riders are totally in. Horseman replacement.

 

[Vehem]

Right- Bear Riders are totally in. Horseman replacement.

Horse Archer replacement maybe? Horsemen have a fairly cool graphic already and it'd be nice to have the bear riders being that little bit stronger...

Could actually make them stronger than normal Horse Archers, given the lack of ranged attack and a reduced Withdrawal chance? Just a nice, straight-up, brutal bear rider.

 

[Valkrionn]

I like it. Archery doesn't really seem Doviello-ish anyway.

 

[Iceciro]

Make sure it doesn't require archery either, so they don't have to go down that path at all for them.

 

[Valkrionn]

Good point. Gotta decide where to put it then...

Future Changes:

1. Supplied promotion- Gained after successful combat with a living enemy, allows free upkeep for 5 turns.
2. +1 for camps. - Done
3. Bear Rider horse archer UU. No ranged attack, higher strength. - Done. 8 rather than 6, no ranged attack, no defensive strikes. Does not require Archery.
4. Stags brought in, Stag Copse is able to be constructed at KotE. Able to caste Haste. - Done.
5. Pandas may be brought in, undecided atm.
6. Mammoth Rider artwork brought in. Amurite, Doviello, Illians. - Done. 1 more than War Elephants, Amurite model is available to everyone. Mammoths and Mammoth Riders have Winterborn.
7. Dens that improve with time. For now, all that improves is the number of allowed animals per den. Moves from an initial value of 1, up by 1 every 25? turns. After 100 turns each den can support 5. This is likely to change drastically before I'm done.
8. Bison resource. Northern cows. - Done
9. Doviello units are now able to duel, excluding settlers, naval units, and animals. Done.
10. Mr. Underhills experience share code. - Done.

Balance Questions:

1. Is the -20% too much, or too little?
2. Terrain Yields- Good? Bad?
3. How to prevent the animal spawning from being a gimmick?
   • Require the sacrifice of a warrior to create a den?
   • Introduce new animals (Dire Wolf, Sabertooth, etc), increasing the potential strength of the animals?
   • Allow Gorilla/Tiger lairs? I like them rare, and don't think the Doviello would have much experience with them.... But it fleshes out the animal units, so I'm not sure.
4. Should the new animal lairs be allowed for the Animal barbarians as well, or kept for the Doviello?