Dragons!

[Chandrasekhar]

Alright, seems like there's no specific locale to discuss dragons here, and everyone knows that dragons are cool, so I've decided to make a thread to discuss the implementation of these awesome creatures.

Now, dragons are known to, especially in a dark fantasy setting, generally go about rampaging and stuff, not really controlled by anyone, but feared by all. Therefore, I propose that we use dragons as barbarian UUs to replace the units which really don't fit common defenitions of "barbarian." So, no chariots or marksmen for the barbs. I think that dragons should begin to replace tier 3 and 4 units, and should probably be stronger than units of that same tier, if not by much. The Clan of Embers also probably shouldn't get them. I know this is all speculation at this point, but I've decided to write down some ideas here, even if the team decides to go with something different. On to the lists!

Tier 3 Dragons:

Base Unit: Chariot
Draconic Unit: White Dragon
Strength: 7
Movement: 2
Abilities: Ignores movement costs
Starting Promotions: Vulnerable to fire
Comments: Little more than glorified beasts, the white dragons are smaller, weaker, and stupider than their other draconic cousins. Still, they are a force to be reckoned with. <Perhaps when ice spells are introduced, the white dragon might be able to cast a simple spell.

Base Unit: Horse Archer
Draconic Unit: Blue Dragon
Strength: 6
Movement: 3
Abilities: Withdraw 20% chance, ignores movement costs, 1-2 first strikes
Starting Promotions: Vulnerable to water/ice (if implemented)
Comments: The Malakim have learned that not all winged shadows on the desert sands are birds. The blue dragons blend in perfectly with the hot sky, and will call down heat lighting before engaging in melee combat. <If electricity spells are implemented, these should get some. If not, maybe a sun spell or two could be appropriate.>

Base Unit: Ranger
Draconic Unit: Black Dragon
Strength: 8
Movement: 2
Abilities: Ignore movement costs, +25% jungle defense
Starting Promotions: Diseased, water walking, amphibious, sorcery, death I, death II, entropy II
Comments: From the dark swamps come the putrid and hideous black dragons. These bestial yet cunning creatures boast some spellcasting ability aside from their brute strength.

Base Unit: Longbowman
Draconic Unit: Green Dragon
Strength: 6
Movement: 3
Abilities: Ignore movement costs, +50% forest attack, +50% jungle attack, +25% hills attack, 2 first strikes
Starting Promotions: Sorcery, Mind I, sentry I
Comments: No matter where you hide, the green dragon can find you. It's known for it's ability to remain unhindered by the terrain that a person is hiding in, and can move and see far enough to reach its targets unerringly.

Base Unit: Maceman
Draconic Unit: Red Dragon
Strength: 9
Movement: 3
Abilities: Causes collateral damage (10%), ignores movement costs, +25% city attack
Starting Promotions: Medic I, march, divine, fire II
Comments: Mightiest of the dragons, the red dragon excells in the fine art of destruction. It's spellcasting abilities and proficiency at attacking cities make it a force to be feared.

Tier 4 Dragons

Base Unit: War Chariot
Draconic Unit: White Wyrm
Strength: 13
Movement: 2
Abilities: Ignores movement costs, can move through impassable terrain
Starting Promotions: Vulnerable to fire, magic resistant, (maybe sorcery and a higher ice spell, if implemented)
Comments: The few white dragons that have survived the merciless test of time have become something greater. These more mature dragons are stronger than any of their younger cousins, though still weaker than their ancient brethren.

Base Unit: Camel Archer
Draconic Unit: Blue Wyrm
Strength: 12
Movement: 3
Abilities: Withdraw 50% chance, ignores movement costs, 2-3 first strikes
Starting Promotions: Vulnerable to water/ice (if implemented), magic resistant, march
Comments: A wise man would rather see a dust storm closing around him than a blue wyrm miles away. These predators are mighty, and have the irritating habit of fleeing before dying, meaning that they often live to terrorize their prey again.

Base Unit: Beastmaster
Draconic Unit: Black Wyrm
Strength: 15
Movement: 2
Abilities: Ignore movement costs, +25% jungle defense, 20% withdraw chance
Starting Promotions: Diseased, water walking, amphibious, sorcery, fear, death I, death II, entropy II, entropy III, earth II, magic resistant
Comments: Some consider the black wyrm to be the foulest creature on earth. It's certainly one of the most deadly. Its spellcasting abilities are supplemented by a high strength, and it uses both to deadly effect.

Base Unit: Marksman
Draconic Unit: Green Wyrm
Strength: 12
Movement: 4
Abilities: Can see stealth, ignores movement costs, +50% forest attack, +50% jungle attack, +25% hills attack, can move through impassable terrain, 3 first strikes
Starting Promotions: Marksman, magic resistant, sorcery, mind I, mind III, blitz, sentry I
Comments: By far the most cunning, resourceful, and malevolent of the dragons, the green wyrms are not to be trifled with. They are far more formidable than their lower (by draconic standards) strength would suggest.

Base Unit: Immortal
Draconic Unit: Red Wyrm
Strength: 16
Movement: 3
Abilities: Causes collateral damage (15%), ignores movement costs, +50% city attack, can bombard defenses (-25% per turn)
Starting Promotions: Medic I, march, fear, divine, fire II, fire III
Comments: The red wyrm is truly a terror to behold. They command the respect of even other dragons. A city targeted by one had best flee or prepare to die with honor, as red wyrms are the toughest non-unique units to beat.

So, that's it for the list as far as I was thinking when I started this thread. Please feel free to make modifications or suggestions if you think anything here could be made better. Also, feel free to make suggestions for other types of dragons. There's still units out there that the barbarians could get replaced!

 

[QES]

Alright, seems like there's no specific locale to discuss dragons here, and everyone knows that dragons are cool, so I've decided to make a thread to discuss the implementation of these awesome creatures.

Now, dragons are known to, especially in a dark fantasy setting, generally go about rampaging and stuff, not really controlled by anyone, but feared by all. Therefore, I propose that we use dragons as barbarian UUs to replace the units which really don't fit common defenitions of "barbarian." So, no chariots or knights for the barbs. I think that dragons should begin to replace tier 3 and 4 units, and should probably be stronger than units of that same tier, if not by much. The Clan of Embers also probably shouldn't get them. I know this is all speculation at this point, but I've decided to write down some ideas here, even if the team decides to go with something different. On to the lists!

Base Unit: Chariot
Draconic Unit: White Dragon
Strength: 7
Movement: 3
Abilities: Ignores terrain costs
Starting Promotions: Vulnerable to fire
Comments: Little more than glorified beasts, the white dragons are smaller, weaker, and stupider than their other draconic cousins. Still, they are a force to be reckoned with. <Perhaps when ice spells are introduced, the white dragon might be able to cast a simple spell>

I'm adding more as you're reading this, but I thought I'd open up the thread to discussion as I go. Please give feedback!

Alot of this is planed for their "quest" phase...ice? maybe shadow...whatever, all i know is that Barbarians are similar but slightly different from monsters and quests which i think will be available. LIke our friendly red dragon.

And IMHO dragons shouldnt be anything less than 4th tier...............baby dragons are hidden and kept safe by momma dragon until they reach badmothershutyourmouth stage of life.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

These don't necessarily have to be the one-of-a-kind dragons like Acheron, Abashi, and Eurabatres, instead they're more like adolescent or young adult dragons that are strong, but still aren't much better than a small army of well-equipped, well-trained soldiers.

 

[Silverkiss]

This doesnt fit for Ffh, as Kael said, Dragons are powerfull machines of mass destructon used by the Gods on the Age of Dragons to wage war, they are ancients creatures and shouldn&#180;t be commom.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

As Kael also said, the FfH cosmos is up for revision if certain mechanics prove to be particularly fun or interesting. They aren't a bunch of elitists working out of a bible, they're skilled people excercising their creative abilites and trying to make something fun. Therefore, I see it as my duty to raise interesting points and propose ideas that I think would be fun. If you disagree, then it shouldn't be because what I propose is different from what we have now, it should be for separately valid reasons.

Unless the team tells me that my speculation is unwelcome, or at least extremely unlikely to be used, I'll continue to mark down ideas that come into my head.

 

[QES]

As Kael also said, the FfH cosmos is up for revision if certain mechanics prove to be particularly fun or interesting. They aren't a bunch of elitists working out of a bible, they're skilled people excercising their creative abilites and trying to make something fun. Therefore, I see it as my duty to raise interesting points and propose ideas that I think would be fun. If you disagree, then it shouldn't be because what I propose is different from what we have now, it should be for separately valid reasons.

Unless the team tells me that my speculation is unwelcome, or at least extremely unlikely to be used, I'll continue to mark down ideas that come into my head.

Id like to see that bible if it were......the crazy amount of interesting things that must be in Kael's GM's notebook.
-Qes

 

[Silverkiss]

Hey, I love dragons and would love to see more of then in the mod, i just tough that maybe you didn&#180;t know Kael&#180;s initial point of view about dragons... Your idea is great man, dont stop !

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Thanks, guys. I'm just trying to help in any way I can, too. If anyone has an idea contrary to what I'm writing down, feel free to voice it. For example, I'm a bit shakey on what I want the green dragons to be for. I thought that if I was going to base them on longbowmen (which seem too disciplined for barbs to get), which get good defense bonuses, then I should have them be the counter to that. Any other ideas are welcome, though.

 

[Silverkiss]

Well, I can´t help whit any of your ideas, or we will start fighting about Dragons

 

[Kael]

I tend to believe that even though dragons are awesome their flavor is runined if they become common. They lose some of their wow factor and become just another unit. So the decision to keep them unique is more about game design, then an attempt to recreate the FfH world (in which you're right, we break rules all the time if it improves the mod).

 

[Chalid]

I'm generally a fan of Dragons, and in my imagination Dragons are powerfull. So if you want to have tier 3 barbarian units of average strength 20 and tier 4 barbarian units of strength 40 (compared to your strength 7 and 14) then so it be.

I rather would not want that way, and making dragons (even the youngest ones) of similar strength than normal units would completely rob them of their flavour.

 

[Silverkiss]

Yay Chalid said it all.

 

[Sureshot]

Dragon's everywhere would seem wrong, but the basic problem of many barb units need replacing (you've put together a nice list) is worth trying to solve. Pretty much all the ones you've listed, except Rangers which have Lizardmen Rangers, and Beastmasters which I think have Lizardmen Beastmasters, need replacements. Barbs definately need a replacement for Royal Guards and maybe Mercenaries.

For some ideas of UU's that barbs could have (that commonality of wouldn't detract from dragon uniqueness) that I can think of are:
-Ogres (really ugly giants)
-Ettins (two headed giants)
-Cyclops
-Trolls
-Krakens (barbs desperately need some purely water based presence)
-Wyverns (think these were mentioned before, with the possibility of rangers riding them if they captured one, could have waterwalking and impassible terrain walking)
-Minotaurs
-Yeti (something in the artic regions to be afraid of)

Those royal guards and such take a bit of the fun out of it, it becomes more like "these are rebels" as opposed to the feel of "these are hideous civilization destroying monsters" that you get from orcs and goblins.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I know it might interfere with the flavor of the game if dragons were "everywhere," but you've got to admit that barbarian chariots and such really don't do much better. I didn't want to make them too strong, 'cause that would impinge upon the strengths of Abashi, Acheron, and Eurabatres, but if you were going to increase their strengths...

In any case, keep in mind that we're talking about individual dragons here, in comparison with the legion of crossbowmen or whatever that a different single unit represents. I'd say that being able to mow down a few legions of crossbowmen would qualify as "strong."

I guess I'd see these dragons as rare and dangerous spawns (look not just at their strengths, but at their abilities), that might also be accompanied by some more common Clan of Embers-type units. Maybe on occasion they'd group together to try and wipe out a civ, but this would be the exception, not the rule. I'd say that a person might be likely to see three or four dragons in a game, and maybe one wyrm. That's how I envisioned it, anyway.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I'm generally a fan of Dragons, and in my imagination Dragons are powerfull. So if you want to have tier 3 barbarian units of average strength 20 and tier 4 barbarian units of strength 40 (compared to your strength 7 and 14) then so it be.

I rather would not want that way, and making dragons (even the youngest ones) of similar strength than normal units would completely rob them of their flavour.

hmmm....
Nature unleashed level II anyone? Converts T3/4 barb units into dragons!

 

[QES]

hmmm....
Nature unleashed level II anyone? Converts T3/4 barb units into dragons!

Maybe something only the dragon cult could do. But instead of "convert" barbarians into dragons, maybe just......SPAWN DRAGONS! Each dragon should be powerful, and perhaps a lot of little dragon followers to function as fodder and scouting material, but it'd be an interesting toy for "dragon cultists" to unleash upon the world. Each major dragon could try to take one city, and make it its "horde". Though these hordes should not be as cool as the main one. So cities would be in trouble from invasions of dragons....the downside? Once a dragon has its city, it stops (like the red dragon). And then just produced barbarians units normally.

-Qes

 

[Jono]

Maybe only dragon whelps? Dragons everywhere does seem a bit... well unbalanced. I'd make them National Units offsprings of existing dragons.

 

[wilboman]

I don't see why everyone is so hung up on dragons. There are plenty of other types of nasty mythical creatures running about that would fit as well, without watering down cool units. - chimeras, salamanders, rocs, trolls, etc.

However, since the barbarians are, strictly speaking, minor civs, if I wanted variation, I'd rather be looking at the idea of making further sub-tribes: derivatives of the Doviello, Dwarves, Elves and Hippus would fit nicely.

To be honest, I was a little bit miffed that the Barbarians turned into all orcs in the first place I liked the human aspect. But that's just me being curmudgeonish. The current state of affairs has grown on me, though

 

[Jono]

It's just that 3 dragons don't cut it for a dark fantasy mod &#8212; I'm not saying they have to be powerful, I'm just saying that there need to be more.

 

[Silverkiss]

I think the contrary, less dragons make the actual dragons in the game feel so powerfull....