Dune Wars 1.3 Feedback
- Thread starter Deliverator
- Start date
davidlallen
Deity
It is not so obvious. Do you write python? I already have a callback in the python which is executed once every 10 turns and prints into a file. You can see DuneWars.py StatInit and StatPrint. When I did this locally, I added the line, "import time" at the top of the file; then the magic phrase you need is:
s = time.strftime("%H:%M:%S")
This gives you a string you can print into the file which gives the current hour, minute, second. I autoplay 105 turns and then look into the debug file. It has the time that turn 0 ran, and the time that turn 100 ran, then I subtract. There is a function time.time() which is supposed to give the number of seconds since 1970. But this function seems to cache somehow because it returns 0 for a while, then 128. So it does not have good resolution. Although strftime is not perfect it does what I wanted.
s = time.strftime("%H:%M:%S")
This gives you a string you can print into the file which gives the current hour, minute, second. I autoplay 105 turns and then look into the debug file. It has the time that turn 0 ran, and the time that turn 100 ran, then I subtract. There is a function time.time() which is supposed to give the number of seconds since 1970. But this function seems to cache somehow because it returns 0 for a while, then 128. So it does not have good resolution. Although strftime is not perfect it does what I wanted.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Some more feedback from my 1.3 game and a new one I started with the 1.3.1 patch:
- [1.3.1] Game runs a bit faster in the beginning, I will pay attention how it goes on
- [1.3.1] Don't know if that was the intention, but Groundwater is now very abundant (and now also very visible
) - it is hard to place a city without having a source in its radius (see picture)
- [1.3] I noticed that their is still inflation in the game and also read the discussion Ahriman started about it. Maybe it could be replaced by higher costs for specialized and later units, like in Planetfall?
- [1.3] Another text relict from BTS...leaders still "unite under the AP", if the Bene Gesserit Palace is built
- [1.3.1] Game runs a bit faster in the beginning, I will pay attention how it goes on
- [1.3.1] Don't know if that was the intention, but Groundwater is now very abundant (and now also very visible
) - it is hard to place a city without having a source in its radius (see picture)- [1.3] I noticed that their is still inflation in the game and also read the discussion Ahriman started about it. Maybe it could be replaced by higher costs for specialized and later units, like in Planetfall?
- [1.3] Another text relict from BTS...leaders still "unite under the AP", if the Bene Gesserit Palace is built
Attachments
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
- [1.3.1] Don't know if that was the intention, but Groundwater is now very abundant (and now also very visible
Well what you said is sort of the intention - Groundwater is the most productive source of water and we want most starting positions to have access to it to ensure decent growth. There is, obviously, a downside in that there is less room for other bonuses to be placed and things can feel a bit samey. Hopefully, with maybe a bit more tuning and maybe some other bright ideas we can refine the concept. All this is quite new since it was only in the last week that water-for-food got integrated...
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
You could make groundwater less common but make it discoverable - like gold etc. can be found with mines and increase the rate at which it is found (because the standard rate for metals would be too low).
Just a random idea.
Cheers, LT.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Maybe some variation in groundwater can be made just for mild flavor, and a slight difference in tile yield? maybe some have +1 water to start with and -1 from wells? Or some that give 1 more from a well than others? Like how pigs/sheep and rice/wheat/corn are different?
Differentiate size: meagre groundwater, groundwater, plentiful groundwater?
Or by name? Artesian Spring, aquifer, artesian basin, groundwater, thermal spring, geysers
Or by depth? Shallow aquifer/deep aquifer etc?
Deep aquifers could have higher tech requirements to be revealed.
Also; the stillsuit maker corporation seems to be unbuildable (it is unfounded, I have the tech requirements and a great trader but no found corp option), which is a good thing, since using groundwater as a
Differentiate size: meagre groundwater, groundwater, plentiful groundwater?
Or by name? Artesian Spring, aquifer, artesian basin, groundwater, thermal spring, geysers
Or by depth? Shallow aquifer/deep aquifer etc?
Deep aquifers could have higher tech requirements to be revealed.
Also; the stillsuit maker corporation seems to be unbuildable (it is unfounded, I have the tech requirements and a great trader but no found corp option), which is a good thing, since using groundwater as a
davidlallen
Deity
I plan to write some documentation for a 1.3.x patch. It will be included in 1.4, presumably, so I did not create a separate thread.
I will mod the civilopedia "BTS Game Concepts" tab. I will rename it "Dune War Concepts". I will remove all the concepts which are there (you should know these by now!) and put new ones. Let's discuss which should be the important topics.
1. Movement. Ability of early game units to move on desert with techs; hover units; carryall units; maybe also, "why don't you have carryalls at the start of the game".
2. Hazards. Sandworms and sandstorms.
3. Water. Importance of groundwater bonus and wells; why do plants give you water
4. Spice. Blows, spice, spice harvester, spice corporation, spice expires.
5. Terraforming. Explains the terraforming victory.
6. Civilizations. List of the unique abilities for each civ. Currently only Harkonnen slavers and Fenring hero-spies are listed, but it will grow.
Any major new concepts missing?
I will mod the civilopedia "BTS Game Concepts" tab. I will rename it "Dune War Concepts". I will remove all the concepts which are there (you should know these by now!) and put new ones. Let's discuss which should be the important topics.
1. Movement. Ability of early game units to move on desert with techs; hover units; carryall units; maybe also, "why don't you have carryalls at the start of the game".
2. Hazards. Sandworms and sandstorms.
3. Water. Importance of groundwater bonus and wells; why do plants give you water
4. Spice. Blows, spice, spice harvester, spice corporation, spice expires.
5. Terraforming. Explains the terraforming victory.
6. Civilizations. List of the unique abilities for each civ. Currently only Harkonnen slavers and Fenring hero-spies are listed, but it will grow.
Any major new concepts missing?
hey guys,
about patch 1.3.3:
1. some buttons are missing - the terrain,
2. terraforming improvement art isnt good - see pedia for this.
ill start working on a patch fixing all of those on the weekend.
***
something is wrong with te terraforming art- the terrain aswell..
about patch 1.3.3:
1. some buttons are missing - the terrain,
2. terraforming improvement art isnt good - see pedia for this.
ill start working on a patch fixing all of those on the weekend.
***
something is wrong with te terraforming art- the terrain aswell..
davidlallen
Deity
I'm going to put my playtest comments for 1.3.4 here, regardless of whether they are bonus related or not.
Overall, I have to say the mod is totally different now than it was with 1.3.1, it is like playing a brand new game. The unit changes were designed independently of the bonus changes, and it shows a little bit. I think we need a bunch of playtest feedback, then some more major changes to move things around. Once that is done, we will be ahead. But I think we should hold off on different types of gameplay changes until we get units and bonuses more synchronized.
I am going to number my feedbacks starting with my list in post #3 in this thread, using "DA" as a prefix. Some people may view this as overly organized, unless you also have been in charge of "code bash" activities for commercial software. We may get dozens of feedbacks, some contradictory, some duplicates, and having a unique name for each comment will help make sure nothing gets lost. Your mileage may vary.
DA08. There are too many hidden resources. In vanilla, there are only three early game resources which are hidden: horse, copper, iron. The location of these makes a big difference. In DW today, the insect farm tech hides four resources, the desert plantation hides another four, and none of these are particularly strategic. I recommend removing most of the reveals so they can be seen when the game starts.
DA09. The water cache (granary) gives +1 health on three resources. That is good but they seem to be less common resources, and why these three? Perhaps it should apply to a wider, consistent set of resources.
DA10. The bladesman gives +10% to city attack. That is nice, but we still need a siege unit to damage the walls. This is not available until crystal is connected. This is a less common resource and it seems to delay city attacks.
DA11. No civs start with thopter. I am not sure exactly how the game assigns your beginning explorer unit. Usually civs that start with hunting start with a scout. But even civs that start with the proper tech for scout thopters, start with a soldier instead of a thopter.
DA12. Art of Kanly makes no sense on Water Transportation tech.
DA13. In the civilopedia, the description of the Ix leader says "she". Based on the screenshot, sorry, that is one ugly lady! Can we pick a male Ix leader or get a female screenshot?
DA14. I find health to be a huge limit right when the game starts. By turn 50, I built a couple of windtraps and wells, and I had 16 water income. But my health was only 3. So I was going to have like -5 health. There was one health resource in my BFC, but it wasn't one of the water cache related ones, so it only gave me +1. I had to beeline space ports and build nutrients convoy to get anywhere at all. I think we need more health bonuses, either from resources or buildings, for the early game.
DA15. I did not understand the difference between the three groundwaters. All three of them give +1 water. I see that the different well types give more water when you build on them. This may be too much complexity, I am not sure.
DA16. Spice decays too fast. Several times I just got the harvester built, and then it immediately vanished. We need it to decay a little so that new blows appear, but it should be slower.
Overall, I have to say the mod is totally different now than it was with 1.3.1, it is like playing a brand new game. The unit changes were designed independently of the bonus changes, and it shows a little bit. I think we need a bunch of playtest feedback, then some more major changes to move things around. Once that is done, we will be ahead. But I think we should hold off on different types of gameplay changes until we get units and bonuses more synchronized.
I am going to number my feedbacks starting with my list in post #3 in this thread, using "DA" as a prefix. Some people may view this as overly organized, unless you also have been in charge of "code bash" activities for commercial software. We may get dozens of feedbacks, some contradictory, some duplicates, and having a unique name for each comment will help make sure nothing gets lost. Your mileage may vary.
DA08. There are too many hidden resources. In vanilla, there are only three early game resources which are hidden: horse, copper, iron. The location of these makes a big difference. In DW today, the insect farm tech hides four resources, the desert plantation hides another four, and none of these are particularly strategic. I recommend removing most of the reveals so they can be seen when the game starts.
DA09. The water cache (granary) gives +1 health on three resources. That is good but they seem to be less common resources, and why these three? Perhaps it should apply to a wider, consistent set of resources.
DA10. The bladesman gives +10% to city attack. That is nice, but we still need a siege unit to damage the walls. This is not available until crystal is connected. This is a less common resource and it seems to delay city attacks.
DA11. No civs start with thopter. I am not sure exactly how the game assigns your beginning explorer unit. Usually civs that start with hunting start with a scout. But even civs that start with the proper tech for scout thopters, start with a soldier instead of a thopter.
DA12. Art of Kanly makes no sense on Water Transportation tech.
DA13. In the civilopedia, the description of the Ix leader says "she". Based on the screenshot, sorry, that is one ugly lady! Can we pick a male Ix leader or get a female screenshot?
DA14. I find health to be a huge limit right when the game starts. By turn 50, I built a couple of windtraps and wells, and I had 16 water income. But my health was only 3. So I was going to have like -5 health. There was one health resource in my BFC, but it wasn't one of the water cache related ones, so it only gave me +1. I had to beeline space ports and build nutrients convoy to get anywhere at all. I think we need more health bonuses, either from resources or buildings, for the early game.
DA15. I did not understand the difference between the three groundwaters. All three of them give +1 water. I see that the different well types give more water when you build on them. This may be too much complexity, I am not sure.
DA16. Spice decays too fast. Several times I just got the harvester built, and then it immediately vanished. We need it to decay a little so that new blows appear, but it should be slower.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I basically agree with everything in this last post.
Health has certainly been an issue I've noticed. There seems to be something fundamental we are missing from vanilla, or maybe just lots of small differences all adding up.
I definitely got carried away with the hidden resources. It might be interesting to delay the Desert Plantation ones just slightly, but make the others visible at the beginning.
The three types of Groundwater was suggested so I thought it was worth trying out.
We seem to have quite an interesting collaborative technique going on. The cycle seems to go: step release -> new feature free-for-all -> balancing/fixing/tidyup -> next step release. That is not a bad iterative process all things considered, and more ideas come out of the interactions between different people's work. It may be a bumpy ride at times, but the mod will end up better for it I think.
Health has certainly been an issue I've noticed. There seems to be something fundamental we are missing from vanilla, or maybe just lots of small differences all adding up.
I definitely got carried away with the hidden resources. It might be interesting to delay the Desert Plantation ones just slightly, but make the others visible at the beginning.
The three types of Groundwater was suggested so I thought it was worth trying out.
We seem to have quite an interesting collaborative technique going on. The cycle seems to go: step release -> new feature free-for-all -> balancing/fixing/tidyup -> next step release. That is not a bad iterative process all things considered, and more ideas come out of the interactions between different people's work. It may be a bumpy ride at times, but the mod will end up better for it I think.
In general I welcome david's attempt for more structure, but what is DA standing for?
DA10. Bladesmen have the 'IgnoreBuildingDefense' ablility. Unfortunately it doesn't show up in the civilopedia, but it's on my todo list for fixing. If aquiring crystal is that much of a problem we have to increase placement rate and make sure it's in a short range to your starting position.
DA11. Yeah, I don't have a clue where starting units are defined.
DA16. Agreed. Also I fail to see the advantage of the current dynamic spice system. Imho it doesn't add anyting interesting to gameplay. There doesn't seems to be any strategy involved in acquiring spice. You don't have to protect it. It only makes your economy less predictable. More worse, it thwarts my poor cpu.
I would prefer going back to spice as a bonus (no feature). Place it only far in deep desert. We would have to edit the sdk to make bonus usable and improvements buildable outside of territory. You would not only have to protect your cities but also your spice production far away. This would finally give us a reason to go into deep desert.
What do you mean? I haven't removed the maula mortar.
DA10. Bladesmen have the 'IgnoreBuildingDefense' ablility. Unfortunately it doesn't show up in the civilopedia, but it's on my todo list for fixing. If aquiring crystal is that much of a problem we have to increase placement rate and make sure it's in a short range to your starting position.
DA11. Yeah, I don't have a clue where starting units are defined.
DA16. Agreed. Also I fail to see the advantage of the current dynamic spice system. Imho it doesn't add anyting interesting to gameplay. There doesn't seems to be any strategy involved in acquiring spice. You don't have to protect it. It only makes your economy less predictable. More worse, it thwarts my poor cpu.
I would prefer going back to spice as a bonus (no feature). Place it only far in deep desert. We would have to edit the sdk to make bonus usable and improvements buildable outside of territory. You would not only have to protect your cities but also your spice production far away. This would finally give us a reason to go into deep desert.
What do you mean? I haven't removed the maula mortar.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I quite like the random blows; particaulrly if you can make the sandworms more of an issue for them.
It seems atm like worms are animal AI - they won't enter cultural borders to attack?
Maybe more worms need to be spawned?
But I like the idea of sending out harvesters but having to run from the worms.
Another possibility; make the build time for a refinery much longer (like triple the current build time or more) and have fewer blows in total, but make the refinery decay much much longer.
That way, you spend more of your time there building improvements (and having to worry about worms) and less time constantly moving around to new blows.
Another possibility with this; have harvesters that are only for building spice refineries, and give them very high movement rates, but long build times for the refinery.
This woudl also improve the value of the techs and civics that increase worker rate.
I'm suspicious about the ability to get the AI opponent to intelligently build improvements and defend from pillage spice resources that are a long way out into the deep desert.
It seems atm like worms are animal AI - they won't enter cultural borders to attack?
Maybe more worms need to be spawned?
But I like the idea of sending out harvesters but having to run from the worms.
Another possibility; make the build time for a refinery much longer (like triple the current build time or more) and have fewer blows in total, but make the refinery decay much much longer.
That way, you spend more of your time there building improvements (and having to worry about worms) and less time constantly moving around to new blows.
Another possibility with this; have harvesters that are only for building spice refineries, and give them very high movement rates, but long build times for the refinery.
This woudl also improve the value of the techs and civics that increase worker rate.
I'm suspicious about the ability to get the AI opponent to intelligently build improvements and defend from pillage spice resources that are a long way out into the deep desert.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I know you can use FreeUnitClasses in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml to give yourself extra starting units. Presumably, if you trace that tag through the code you can find where the other starting units are defined.
davidlallen
Deity
Sorry, I do this all the time in RL but I forgot to explain. If several people are all submitting issues simultaneously, then we need a way to tell whose "issue 10" we are discussing. My initials are DA. So "DA10" is my tenth issue. Each person should use some different string prefix, so we can tell them all apart.
koma13 said:
The key concept of the spice blows is that they appear randomly in the books, and signal Fremen that more spice is appearing. If the spice does not decay, then there is no reason for new spice blows to ever appear. So to make blows appear, the spice has to decay. Any votes on keeping it or removing it?
The *randomness* of the spice appearing has nothing to do with overloading your cpu. If there are 100 squares of spice there constantly, it is the same cpu load as 100 squares in changing locations. After Deliverator's change to remove the attachables, do you still find it too slow?
ahriman said:
Ditto. I can make the spice appear at the start of the game and never change or decay; but then I have to remove blows, and it requires a little more care to make sure each player has equal access to spice. Right now I just assume that random is random, and if you have less now, you will have more later.
Deliverator
ill add to patch 1.3.5 the scout thopter.
koma13,
your right,
i mean we should make mhula a bit sooner.
though i loke the spice blows alot - its one of the cool unique stuff we have,
i tend to agree with koma,
first i think we should limit spice after a blow to 1 tile only,
second, make spice blows occur not every five min, but much longer and rarer = spice should cover all of the map, and indeed i think we need to add some strategy to the spice - i want nations to fight for it, spice as a resource - madse it rarer and if you wanted more pf it to your empire - you needed to conquar more land.
koma13,
no need to edit the sdk - we have jimprovement code, we can do what ever we wnat with improvements - built outside and more.
so, any thought about spice mechanics?
mine is to make spice apear less and smaller, so it wouldn't be that easy to get spice,
and in order to adjust economy - change the spice money value from house corp.
ill add to patch 1.3.5 the scout thopter.
koma13,
your right,
i mean we should make mhula a bit sooner.
though i loke the spice blows alot - its one of the cool unique stuff we have,
i tend to agree with koma,
first i think we should limit spice after a blow to 1 tile only,
second, make spice blows occur not every five min, but much longer and rarer = spice should cover all of the map, and indeed i think we need to add some strategy to the spice - i want nations to fight for it, spice as a resource - madse it rarer and if you wanted more pf it to your empire - you needed to conquar more land.
koma13,
no need to edit the sdk - we have jimprovement code, we can do what ever we wnat with improvements - built outside and more.
so, any thought about spice mechanics?
mine is to make spice apear less and smaller, so it wouldn't be that easy to get spice,
and in order to adjust economy - change the spice money value from house corp.
Ahriman
Tyrant
There's somethnig weird with Assault Hovers; when I select one the normal orders panel disappears, and they don't seem to have any promotions available to them. Maybe they're in the wrong unit class or something?
