Dune Wars

phungus420 · Oct 29, 2009

davidlallen said:
Thanks for the info! The spice corporation buildings are set up a bit oddly. There is a buildingclass which has MaxGlobalInstances set to -1 (no limit). Every civ has their own UB with a MaxPlayerInstances of 1. It would take a while to set up the experiment, but I believe this means the player who loses their spice corp building could build it again; it is more like a national unit with a cap. Does that sound right?

MaxGlobalInstances = Can only be built once in the game
MaxPlayerInstances = How many the player can have at any given time (actually it's how many the player can have --in existence and in a city's build queue-- before the canNotTrain or canNotBuild functions in CvCity returns true)

So yes, you are correct.

Deliverator · Oct 29, 2009

Ahriman said:
The Automated factory, computerized research center and thinking machine factory buildings are supposed to require the Technocracy religion in that city. That's the point of technocracy religion; you can't build these without it.
Also, they are supposed to cause +unhappiness just in their own city, not in the whole continent.
Increase the unhappy to +3 if you think its not enough.

davidlallen said:
This still doesn't make any sense to me. These particular buildings run on Thinking Machines, which is an Ixian UR. If we remove the requirement for TM from these buildings, then we remove the unhappiness and they become generic rate increase buildings. If you just want generic rate increase buildings, perhaps we can find some other way to introduce the risk of the Second Butlerian Jihad.

If I understand correctly, Ahriman's argument is that they is no real benefit to Technocracy right now. He is not suggesting removing the unhappiness, he is saying the unhappiness should be caused by the automated factories with are enabled by the Technocracy religion. The unhappiness should be caused by the building irrespective of the requirement for that building. I guess the question is should these buildings require both Technocracy *and* the Thinking Machines bonus?

I still wonder whether the late game religions - Qizarate and Technocracy - are *too* late. I haven't really had a chance to test this out thought.

Ahriman · Oct 29, 2009

Please try setting these buildings to be automatically destroyed upon conquest.

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't work; I think destroying the building that founds the corporation won't remove the corporation from the city.
The building itself does almost nothing once it is created; the income comes from the *corporation*.
The point is as much to prevent a conqueror from having two cities with spice corporation (and so doubling their spice income) as it is to allow the victim to move their spice corporation elsewhere.

So the question is not just can the building be destroyed and rebuilt elsewhere, but can the corporation (eg Atreides Spice Firm) be refounded (or just respread? do we need the corporation hq?) in another city.

Another alternative implementation would be to try to tie the corporations into the palace, rather than a separate building.

This still doesn't make any sense to me.

The design goal for these buildings is:
a) Production benefit only for followers of the Technocracy religion. Cause unhappiness.
b) Synergy with Thinking Machines UR (but not necessarily absolute requirement for thinknig machnie UR)
c) Synergy with Ixian civ.

The way that this is achieved in my design is:
i) Buildings require technocracy religion. These are like the technocracy religion temple/cathedral. They cause unhappiness in their city.
ii) Buildings give extra bonus yields with power, which can only be achieved through the thinknig machine resource
iii) Ixian factions get a unique building replacement for these structures, which has less unhappiness.

So for example, we have:
Automated Factory.
Requires technocracy religion present in the city.
Gives +2 unhappy in this city (+3 maybe?) in that city.
+25% hammers
Extra +25% hammers with power.

And power comes only from:
Thinking machine factory.
Causes +2 unhappy in this city.
Provides power with Thinking Machine resource.

And we have an Ixian replacement UB:
Ixian Automated Factory
Requires Technocracy religion.
+1 unhappy (or no unhappy).
+25% hammers, +25% hammers with power.

Ixian Thinking Machine Factory
Requires tecnnocracy religion.
+1 unhappy (or +0 unhappy)
Provides power with thinknig machine resource.

In your current implementation, the Technocracy religion is useless, because *anyone* can build the structures. And the structures really aren't worth building, because of the massive continent-wise unhappiness they could cause (+25% hammers in a single city just isn't worth potentially +10 unhappy or more across a continent).
The Technocracy religion is supposed to represent the idea of skirting the strictures of the Butlerian Jihad. Being able to build these structures without the religion makes no sense to me.

I still wonder whether the late game religions - Qizarate and Technocracy - are *too* late. I haven't really had a chance to test this out thought.

I don't think so, though they could need tweaking.
Quizarate can spread very rapidly if you choose to adopt it, because of how it wipes other religions. I'm not sure if its adopted enough by the AI: maybe when the religion is founded, it should also start with a couple of free missionaries.
Academies is also not that late a tech.

Technocracy is suppsoed to be very hard to spread, but the buildings it provides are potentially very powerful, so there is significant gain from spreading it.

I often observe the founder of technocracy adopting it, and similarly the founder of Quizarate.

davidlallen · Oct 29, 2009

I'm sure we can find a good way to agree about technocracy buildings. Suppose for a moment that we have technocracy in the game, but not thinking machines or Ix. A technocrat city builds an automated factory. It doesn't have thinking machines; so this automated factory should not give any unhappiness. So without thinking machines, there is no unhappiness. We can implement the technocrat buildings this way, although perhaps we should remove "automated" and "computerized" from the names. This is what I was referring to as "generic rate increase buildings".

Do you agree? If not, what is the theme reason for unhappiness from the technocrat buildings?

Now let us add thinking machines. The existing buildings may get increased output rates from thinking machines, at the cost of unhappiness; so the player may or may not want to build the thinking machine additions.

Now let us add Ix. They can add thinking machines without the unhappiness; so the Ixian player would go right ahead and build the thinking machine additions.

Does that make sense?

davidlallen · Oct 29, 2009

Ahriman said:
I think destroying the building that founds the corporation won't remove the corporation from the city. The building itself does almost nothing once it is created; the income comes from the *corporation*. The point is as much to prevent a conqueror from having two cities with spice corporation (and so doubling their spice income) as it is to allow the victim to move their spice corporation elsewhere.

I did some experiments, and I am not able to see this doubling behavior. I took any random save on a midgame position. As Ordos, I had a corporation income of 41 and my neighbor, Bene Gesserit, had a corporation income of 23. Using WB, I gave myself a stack of 20 devastators and took her capital city. Before attacking, I see her spice building is there.

After attacking, I capture the city and look. Most of the buildings are gone including the spice corp. (This is without making the changes I suggested for bNoCapture and iConquestProb.) I hit next turn to be sure everything is updated. My spice income is now 43 (I guess I finished another harvester) and hers is zero.

How are these steps different from your steps?

I then use the built-in shortcut shift-ctrl-L which pops up the dialog to change players; and I take over the BG civilization. Looking in my city build queue for some other city, I do not see the option to build a spice corp building.

So one bug I can see is that you cannot re-found the corp; I will try to figure out why. However, I am not seeing your doubling effect.

Ahriman · Oct 29, 2009

Suppose for a moment that we have technocracy in the game, but not thinking machines or Ix. A technocrat city builds an automated factory. It doesn't have thinking machines; so this automated factory should not give any unhappiness. So without thinking machines, there is no unhappiness

Is this a proposal you support? Or just a hypothetical? Its unclear sometimes.
It would be much easier if you would write down (for example) the stats of the automated factory building as you imagine they should be.
Do you agree that the buildings should require technocracy religion?
Do you agree that continent-wide unhappiness is too much?

My impression was: anyone with the technocracy religion can build some computers and robots if they try (thats what the technocracy religion represents), its just that the Ixians are really good at it - and the robots are much better if they have powerful Ixian-developed Artificial Intelligence.

People don't like the automated factory even if it is using only substandard robots, rather than superior Ixian ones with much improved self-aware AI. But Ixian populations don't mind so much.

My preference is for even the base buildings to give unhappiness (but not unmanageable quantities).
If you moved them so that they only gave unhappiness with thinking machines resource:
i) Can you have a building that gives +unhappy from a particular resource? Is it easily codeable?
ii) Are you also giving them a production bonus from having thinking machnies resource? If not, then you are better off to not have a strategic resource (because all they get from the resource is unhappy), which feels wrong. If so, then what is the purpose of the power plant? Just have the factory give +25% hammers and +unhappy with the thinking machine resource, and remove the power plant.

So, we could have either:
a)

Spoiler :

Or b)

Spoiler :

Either of these could work.

Ahriman · Oct 29, 2009

How are these steps different from your steps?

I waited until the city left revolt. Cities in revolt generate no income, even from corporations.

Go into the newly captured bene gesserit city, and check that the Bene Gesserit spice corporation is still present in the city, even though their headquarters no longer is.

I am not 100% certain, I haven't checked this in a while, but I am reasonable certain.

Ahriman · Oct 29, 2009

How are these steps different from your steps?

See attached screenshots: both my capital and the captured Ixian capital have spice firms that are each giving me gold 54 gold (from 18 spice resources), and my total corporation spice income is the sum of the individuals.

The shots also reveal an unintended issue, which is that the right corps aren't going to the right civs; my Atreides city had CHOAM as its spice corporation (no I didn't found the landsraad religion), and the Ixian city had the Atreides spice corporation.

Deliverator · Oct 29, 2009

The shots also reveal an unintended issue, which is that the right corps aren't going to the right civs; my Atreides city had CHOAM as its spice corporation (no I didn't found the landsraad religion), and the Ixian city had the Atreides spice corporation.

That's very weird. I've reviewed the 1.6.1e XML and I can't see anything wrong that would cause this. Was it like that before you captured the Ix city?

Ahriman · Oct 29, 2009

Was it like that before you captured the Ix city?

I dunno, I never checked. I noticed I had corporations, I didn't pay attention to the names.

I wonder if everything somehow got bumped down a number in some list when you added the CHOAM corporation, for the Landsraad shrine?

Deliverator · Oct 29, 2009

I wonder if everything somehow got bumped down a number in some list when you added the CHOAM corporation, for the Landsraad shrine?

Well, when I did 1.6.1e I renamed all the XML corporation tags from CORPORATION_8, CORPORATION_9, etc to proper names like CORPORATION_ATREIDES, etc. But like I say, I've reviewed that the right civs have the right buildings and right corporations in the 1.6.1e XML and it all looks fine. Plus I was testing founding the house corps and CHOAM to try out the gamefont icons and I didn't see anything like this. Perhaps it is a bug relating to the capturing of another house corp.

davidlallen · Oct 30, 2009

Ahriman said:
See attached screenshots: both my capital and the captured Ixian capital have spice firms that are each giving me gold 54 gold (from 18 spice resources), and my total corporation spice income is the sum of the individuals.

Thanks, the step I was missing was actually getting the conquered city connected. I took over a city deep in enemy territory, and it could not connect to my resources. By also destroying a few more enemy cities in the way and giving myself a few thousand free culture, I could connect the conquered city. Then I see the doubled values.

I experimented a little with WB, and looked through the python and sdk for manipulating corporations. It seems that *re* founding a corporation was not something the civ authors planned for; you aren't allowed to build the corp building if the corp was ever founded. For sdk modders, see CvCity::canConstruct, call to isCorporationFounded. You can remove the corp from all cities and unset the headquarters, but there is no way provided to clear the year in which the corp was founded.

I can fix it; the first part is like an inquisitor operation, but allowing refounding will also take a small sdk change.

The shots also reveal an unintended issue, which is that the right corps aren't going to the right civs; my Atreides city had CHOAM as its spice corporation (no I didn't found the landsraad religion), and the Ixian city had the Atreides spice corporation.

I am not able to reproduce this. I tried a few new games and loaded a few old ones; the capitol city for each city has the right corp icon.

If you start a new game and use the "Edit City" choice in sdk, you can add and remove corps from cities. If you play the game a short distance till you found the spice corp, do you get the right icon?

EDIT: Are you using 1.6.1e? I guess deliverator has made some font changes, so 1.6.1d and previous may be incorrect but 1.6.1e should be correct. I did not try with 1.6.1d, but presumably since deliverator has made this fix in 1.6.1e, then 1.6.1d must have been incorrect.

Deliverator · Oct 30, 2009

1.6.1e only updated the Gamefonts icons and the XML tag names for Corporations (which should be invisible to the player). These changes wouldn't have been responsible for the wrong corporation entirely being in a city, but there could be an existing issue that we are only just noticing.

Ahriman · Oct 30, 2009

I can fix it

Awesome, yeah I thought it might be tricky. Great that you can imagine a fix.
* * *
Yes, I am running 1.6.1e.

Potential reason though; I *might* have started the game at 1.6.1d, and then installed 1.6.1e and then loaded the save and kept going?
So if we can't reproduce, this is probably a one-time thing from that.

I'll test in a new game at some point. I hadn't noticed any errors like this before.

Deliverator · Oct 30, 2009

Potential reason though; I *might* have started the game at 1.6.1d, and then installed 1.6.1e and then loaded the save and kept going?
So if we can't reproduce, this is probably a one-time thing from that.

That would definitely do it. I also changed the order of the corporations in the XML file so that could explain the scrambling.

Ahriman · Oct 30, 2009

That would definitely do it. I also changed the order of the corporations in the XML file so that could explain the scrambling.

Ok. Then lets assume this is what happened unless we notice something weird happening again.

davidlallen · Oct 30, 2009

davidlallen said:
Pardon the all caps, but here are the current starting techs. Please suggest the changes.

ATREIDES: WATER_CONSERVATION DESERT_SURVIVAL
ORDOS: DESERT_SURVIVAL MINING
TLEILAX: DESERT_SURVIVAL MINING
FREMEN: EXPLORATION DESERT_SURVIVAL
CORRINO: EXPLORATION MINING
HARKONNEN: EXPLORATION MINING
GESSERIT: DESERT_SURVIVAL MYSTICISM
IX: DESERT_SURVIVAL MYSTICISM
ECAZ: WATER_CONSERVATION EXPLORATION

<crickets chirping>

OK, I will change Ix to Water Conservation + Mining, and Tleilaxu to Mysticism + Exploration. Now at least each civ has different starting techs, except that Harkonnen and Corrino. But, there are only 10 unique combinations. The two that are unused both have Mysticism, and I can't find a game reason for Corrino or Harkonnen to have either.

Ahriman · Oct 30, 2009

<crickets chirping>

I missed this.

I'd say:

ATREIDES: WATER_CONSERVATION, Exploration
ORDOS: MINING
TLEILAX:Mysticism,
FREMEN: EXPLORATION DESERT_SURVIVAL
CORRINO: EXPLORATION MINING
HARKONNEN: MINING, spice extraction.
GESSERIT: DESERT_SURVIVAL MYSTICISM
IX: Mining, Crystal materials
ECAZ: Exploration, Desert trade.

I think a few of the tier2 techs can't hurt, and give a little more variety.

Giving both water conservation and desert survival to a single faction is probably too strong; they are priority techs.

davidlallen · Oct 31, 2009

Version 1.6.3 is released. See the first post in the thread for details.

Deliverator · Nov 1, 2009

DV28 - The effects described in the Landing Stage popup are not all accurate, for example Caladanian Wine gives +2 happy not +2 health.

DV29 - When one of your stacked units loses a battle to a Harkonnen unit and is converted into a Harkonnen slave there are some strange side effects. In this case, the slave should appear in the same tile as the attacking unit (maybe this should always be the case).

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