Dune Wars
- Thread starter ChrisAdams3997
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Ahriman
Tyrant
I dislike splitting these into two buildings, I think it is much easier to keep them in a single building, and to tie them all in to Technocracy religion. Why do you want to be divorcing this from technocracy? This is what technocracy is about. Are you worried about Ixians not being able to get technocracy? You could crate an event that gives Ix a Technocracy missionary when they research the industrialism tech, even if Technocracy has already been founded elsewhere.
Having a building that "requires" power in order to build? That seems strange.
Its also problematic timing wise. With your design, I could trade the Ixians for Thinking machine resource, build the thinking machine factories in all my cities, and then cancel the trade, and still be able to build the computerized buildings and get all the bonuses.
Hence why the building should provide power *with thinking machines resource* (like how a coal plant provides power with coal), and the bonus resources should come with power (like a normal factory), rather than requiring power to construct the building.
Or perhaps this is what you meant, and were just imprecise.
Having a building that "requires" power in order to build? That seems strange.
Its also problematic timing wise. With your design, I could trade the Ixians for Thinking machine resource, build the thinking machine factories in all my cities, and then cancel the trade, and still be able to build the computerized buildings and get all the bonuses.
Hence why the building should provide power *with thinking machines resource* (like how a coal plant provides power with coal), and the bonus resources should come with power (like a normal factory), rather than requiring power to construct the building.
Or perhaps this is what you meant, and were just imprecise.
davidlallen
Deity
As I said, I don't like the idea that Ixians are *forced* to follow Technocracy in order to build their own UB. This appears to be the fundamental issue where we disagree, the rest are just details.
The current factory gives +25% without power, and +50% with power. I am just proposing to make it +0% without power, and +25% with power.
Sorry, that is what I meant.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I don't like this. A building that does nothing unless another building has been constructed?
Particularly weird since the factory IIRC comes *before* the power plant in the tech tree.
A fair point. Why don't we merge these then, so that the Ixian base versions don't require the religion? But they still need the religion for the full bonuses, so that they still have a synergy with technocracy?
Automated factory. Requires Technocracy religion. +25% hammers. +25% hammers with power. +2 unhappy.
Ixian automated factory. +25% hammers. +25% hammers with power.
Thinking machine plant. Requires technocracy religion. Provides power with Thinking Machines resource. +2 unhappy.
Ixian Thinking Machine plant. Requires technocracy religion. Provides power with Thinking Machines resource.
Computerized research facility. Requires technocracy religion. +25% beakers. +25% beakers with power. +2 unhappy.
Ixian Computerized facility. +25% beakers. +25% beakers with power.
davidlallen
Deity
Assuming "requires technocracy" is a typo in that quote, we may have reached a compromise. Let me think about it a little more, but this sounds workable.
Ahriman
Tyrant
No, that was intended. If there is no requirement for technocracy religion on the power plant, then Ix can get EVERYTHING without using the Technocracy religion - and so would have no incentive to try to get Technocracy.
We should be encouraging Ixian players to try to get Technocracy, while still giving them something even if they don't. Ixians should have design synergies with Technocracy religion: they should ideally get MORE from it than other players, not less.
So in my design, Ix can still get the 25% bonuses from the core buildings, and no unhappiness penalties, without Technocracy religion. But they still need technocracy to get power, and the second set of bonuses.
davidlallen
Deity
I guess we are not agreeing yet after all. If the non-religious Ixian player can build armies full of cybernetic walking machines, why can't they build a thinking machine factory without converting?
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
The problem is that the benefits of being Ix and the benefits of Technocracy overlap too much. That seems to be the source of the disagreement and seems to making things really complicated.
Why not give the +beakers buildings to Technocracy and the +hammers buildings to Ix. Simplify it right down. So:
Research Facility. Requires technocracy religion. +25% beakers. +25% beakers with Thinking Machines, +2 unhappy
Assembly Plant +15% hammers. +15% hammers with Thinking Machines. +2 unhappy
Ixian Assembly Plant replaces Assembly Plant. +50% hammers (Thinking machines assumed available since Ix) No unhappy.
Or something like that. It will be easier to understand if the benefits of being Ix and Technocracy aren't overlapping so much, and having six buildings to get to a solution seems overkill.
Why not give the +beakers buildings to Technocracy and the +hammers buildings to Ix. Simplify it right down. So:
Research Facility. Requires technocracy religion. +25% beakers. +25% beakers with Thinking Machines, +2 unhappy
Assembly Plant +15% hammers. +15% hammers with Thinking Machines. +2 unhappy
Ixian Assembly Plant replaces Assembly Plant. +50% hammers (Thinking machines assumed available since Ix) No unhappy.
Or something like that. It will be easier to understand if the benefits of being Ix and Technocracy aren't overlapping so much, and having six buildings to get to a solution seems overkill.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I would assume that the walkers aren't necessarily entirely controlled by computerized artifical intelligence. Maybe they have a human pilot, or are remote drones. Or maybe there are a handful of military AIs imported from offworld that you can easily put into vehicles in an army still largely run by people, which is very different from roboticising your society, and handing over your production facilities to artificial intelligences, which is what Technocracy religion represents.
Why should Ixians be able to have a society run by Artificial Intelligences without adopting Technocracy religion?
Also, gameplay.
Surely you can agree that it is not a good design to have Ix get no additional benefits from having Technocracy in its cities? Your design has very poor incentives for gameplay.
Can we agree on the basic design goals?
1. Technocracy religion gives production research bonuses, at the cost of happiness. Technocracy religion is powerful enough that it is worth pursuing.
2. Technocracy religion buildings have synergy with Thinking Machine resource.
3. Ixian faction has synergy with Technocracy religion.
If we do not agree on the design goals: why not?
What is the alternative design goal?
I dislike this. First, it doesn't really make sense with the conception of the Religion. Second, it makes the religion too weak. Why bother trying to found and spread a late-game religion, if all it gives you is a small research boost? It just doesn't seem worth it.
Also, those names are very generic. I prefer words like Automated, Robotic, Computerized, Cybernetic, etc.
Otherwise they don't feel different from a normal factory, or the things used by most factions in the Dune universe. These buildings should feel *different*.
How so? Only 3 will ever be available to a particular faction, and they're attached to a religion, or are UBs. Its mostly just some copy and paste XML.
davidlallen
Deity
This mixing of the ideas is occurring all over the place. I did not view technocracy as rule by AI. The reason I introduced unhappiness bonuses is due to fear of thinking machines and a Second Butlerian Jihad; I think it should be possible to have a technocracy without any thinking machines and therefore without any unhappiness. So I do not quite agree with #1.
I agree with #2, #3; synergy is fine. But let me add #4: A non-religious Ixian player should be able to build all their own UB. If the UB gives an additional advantage with technocracy, that is fine, but don't force me to change religions in order to access my own UB. I can't think of any other mod where this occurs.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
davidlallen said:
Ahriman said:
Ahriman said:
davidlallen said:
It seems Ahriman's view is more that Technocracy means the use of thinking machines which would mean that the Ixian Thinking Machines bonus would represent the fact that the Ixians makes better ones than anyone else. Technocracy has the benefit of production and research, but the cost of unhappiness.
David's view is that a Technocracy does not necessarily involve thinking machines, in which case buildings prefixed Automated, Robotic, Computerized, Cybernetic do not make sense and neither does the unhappiness associated with them. So in this case I presume Technocracy has the benefit of more production and research, but with the only cost being you don't get to run another religion?
So it seems there is a fundamental disagreement about what Technocracy represents, what the Ixian Thinking Machine bonus represents and what the Ixian advantages should be.
Is it possible to make it so that the Automated Factory and Computerized Research Facility can be built by anyone running Technocracy OR by Ix irrespective of what religion they are running?
Then set the Thinking Machines synergies so that Technocracy is still attractive the Ix player. We could get rid of the concept of these buildings being UBs for Ix since Ix will get more juice out of them anyway (since they control the Thinking Machines bonus). Unhappiness only comes from non-Ixian factions using the Thinking Machines bonus.
You'd still have the conceptual problem that Automated/Computerized = Thinking Machines so should make people unhappy. Maybe there are other names that don't imply thinking machines?
This is what I was trying to propose with Research Facility and Assembly Plant, which are bland I'll admit - but if you want Technocracy without thinking nachines then what are the options? You need something that makes sense with technology focussed humans doing the work, that will work better with thinking machines doing the work. I agree with Ahriman that *different* exotic names are nice, but I haven't thought of anything better yet.
Ahriman
Tyrant
The power plant isn't really an Ixian UB. Its a technocracy religion building, its just that the Ixians get a better version of it.
I am happy to allow Ix to build the Ixian versions of the factory and research center without the Technocracy religion, as long as they can only get full benefits by using the religion. So, without the religion, they still get an extra production and research building, relative to most factions.
But I see no reason to also let them build the power plant without the religion.
I wouldnt' call it *rule* by AI. Are we ruled by computers now? Well, maybe...
But yes, to me Technocracy represents restructuring the economy into a computerized/roboticized structure, which risks breaching the Butlerian restrictions. This increases production and research. Ixians are much better at doing this, and have much more efficient methods with running these systems by AIs, and so with Ixian technology (URU resource) their yields can be increased even further.
Also, Ixians are more able to control their populations, and so do not get the unhappiness penalty from adopting this system.
If this is not Technocracy religion, what is it?
My design in post 344 allows for this. The only thing Ix can't get without the religion is the power plant, which boosts yields of the other two.
Whereas normals can't get anythnig without the religion.
I thought this was a pretty reasonable compromise.
I would distinguish between a robotic assembly plant, like we have today, which woudl still make people nervous and unhappy, and then a robotic assemby plant run by an artificial intelligence.
I'd be happy to split the happiness penalty though: have +1 unhappy from the building, and then another +1 unhappy from thinking machine resource. The problem is, thinknig machine resource doesnt' provide any bonus directly, only through the powerplant.
So you would be worse off with building + TM resource but no powerplant than you would if you had building + no TM resource and no powerplant.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
davidlallen said:
From Dune Appendix:
How about we use the term Servok Factory for the technocracy building?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Sorry, but I really dislike this. Technocracy religion needs to represent doing things differently from business as usual. These Servoks are the type of thing that would be in the Factory building, available at Industrialism. We could rename that building Servok Factory.
What is the point of having a new religion and value system, if it just represents the same thing you were already doing?
In terms of game mechanics, I'm not particularly worried where the happiness penalties come in: my main issue is on the requirements for building each structure, and which bonuses you can get with/without resources/religion as Ix or anyone else.
However, I do think it makes much more sense to spread the unhappiness penalties over the benefits, so that each marginal decision gives a cost benefit.
Compare:
a) Building 1 (factory) gives +25% hammers, +2 unhappy. Probably worth building. Building 2 (power plant) provides power, which gives +25% hammers and +2 unhappy. Probably worth building in some cities.
to:
b) Building 1 (factory) gives +25% hammers. Definitely worth building. Building 2 (power plant) provides power, gives +25% more hammers and +4 unhappy. Probably not worth building.
Its important to have the marginal incentives to be right at each incremental decision.
davidlallen
Deity
Version 1.6.4 is released! See the first post in the thread.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Can we encourage more people to rate this thread, if they like they like the mod? Share the joy. Thanks guys!
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2005
- Messages
- 2,073
We need to put Some screenies on download pages, as once Deliverator proposed.
Also it will be nice if each patch will have different screenies featuring new additions.
Also, please check the forum for MP games. Please help me establish our Hamachi DW MP network - and if you like mod - please join Hamachi channel : Sorcciv password: zemo to play DW MP games.
Thanks.
Also it will be nice if each patch will have different screenies featuring new additions.
Also, please check the forum for MP games. Please help me establish our Hamachi DW MP network - and if you like mod - please join Hamachi channel : Sorcciv password: zemo to play DW MP games.
Thanks.
Ahriman
Tyrant
AHR 80 (???skipped some)
Bombardment doesn't seem to work vs force shields. Is there some bug here? See the succession game thread.
Bombardment doesn't seem to work vs force shields. Is there some bug here? See the succession game thread.
God-Emperor
Deity
It isn't a bug. It is doing what they are set to do.
Guard Station (BUILDING_DEFESNE_GRID): 25% defense and -25% to bombardment
Force Shield (BUILDING_CITADEL): 75% defense and -75% to bombardment
These add, giving: 100% defense and -100% to bombardment.
When it gives -100% to bombardment, it really means -100%. No damage. Ever.
"Gunpowder" units ignore these, both the defense and the bombardment reduction, but none of the ground units with bombard capability in the game are set up to do this. (It's the bIgnoreBuildingDefense tag that makes a unit ignore both of these.)
You can, however, reduce the defense with fighters and bombers - their bombardment works. Evidently they don't check the iBombardDefense value of the buildings, or if they do they use a different formula. They do use the iAirModifier, which changes the amount of damage they do but I'm not sure if this applies only to attacking units or if it also applies to reducing defenses.
Anyhow, if you want to be able to reduce the defense provided by shield via bombardment, I'd suggest changing their iBombardDefense from 75 to 50, this would make the combined total with the guard station be -75% to bombardment.
I was actually going to suggest this as the AI does not seem to understand that it will never be able to bombard a cities defenses down when it has shields. At least some of the time it will sit there bombarding away, turn after turn, to no effect.
davidlallen
Deity
Thanks for the investigation. I will make this change.
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