DuneWars: Battle for Arrakis

[Ahriman]

You also forget about pole

No I didn't forget, its just that my priority is to wipe them off our island. If we want to build transports, we can do it after we start the war, they have high movement and can catch up if we really think we can do all this in a single war. But the military buildup should be just combat units, we need to strike asap.

Having polar ice early is good bonus. We should not ignore that

Polar ice does nothing but +1 health in the early game. Our priorities are conquest, not getting ice.

 

[Slvynn]

No I didn't forget, its just that my priority is to wipe them off our island. If we want to build transports, we can do it after we start the war, they have high movement and can catch up if we really think we can do all this in a single war. But the military buildup should be just combat units, we need to strike asap.


Polar ice does nothing but +1 health in the early game. Our priorities are conquest, not getting ice.

1 thing is not denies other. Troops should be able to move 1 turn after capture of capital. Make Wind Pass which have Landsraad building Transports and self defences.
Polar cities are awesome to us, because they are water-thick. SE will blossom there. Also we have not much left to watershipper. That will give us more 1 specialist per city.
1 thing not denies other.

 

[Deliverator]

Looking at the save now.

We have now have 13 Mahdi Zealots that can get next to the Tleilaxu border within the next two turns.

The current defense in New Bandalong is a Sus Gunship, 3 Infantry, Sus Transport and a couple of Scout Thopters. All the infantry have City Defense I and II and the cultural defense is 60%. It is really tempting to go in at some point soon. Chemical Explosives for Maula Mortars will take 7 turns. What do we think? Strike soon and rely on strength of numbers or go for Maula Mortars and build some of those first to bring down the cultural defences?

I agree with Ahriman - I don't think there is a big difference between walking across land and transporting. You can't move/attack the turn you disembark anyway. It would have been better to have a bigger stack of Mahdi Zealots, but nevermind.

Benevolence for the Atreides Heir which will boost our entire stack is 12 turns off.

Al Yassanah should be churning out Hawk Thopters now that it has the Pilot School - we should be making the most of one of our UUs.

What do people think the best strategy is?

 

[Ahriman]

1 thing is not denies other

Sure they do. If you are building transports, then you arent' building other things.
But I don't feel that strongly. Deliverator, do what you like.

Troops should be able to move 1 turn after capture of capital

Why? Better to heal your army first. They *will* take damage.

1 thing not denies other

If you attack the polar cities first, then you will have long supply lines, risk losing transports, and will still not take the easy target, which is to kick them off our island.
Everything has an opportunity cost.

Chemical Explosives for Maula Mortars will take 7 turns. What do we think? Strike soon and rely on strength of numbers or go for Maula Mortars and build some of those first to bring down the cultural defences?

Hmm. 60% defenses means that the infantry are:
3*(1+0.6+0.25+0.5+0.4) = 8.25 with a first strike. So we could potentially lose ~4-6 units or so in a direct assault.

Remember that we have strong incentives to preserve our zealots, because they are upkeep free.

I'm even more worried that they already have maula pistols tech, and will upgrade infantry -> maula gaurdsmen as soon as we declare war.
Can we check from the trade screen whether they have maula pistols tech?

The zealots are cheap, so maybe its worth just going ahead with the blitz.
Note that we really *must* do it in a single turn assault, otherwise the plague will spread to everyone else in between turns.

I could go either way. Other thoughts?

Its definitely not worth waiting for Atreides heirs. 12 turns for the tech, then many more to build one, they are quite expensive.

 

[Deliverator]

"Muad'Dib, the fighters are ready. What is your command?"

Paul takes one last look across the basin at the twinkling lights of the Tleilaxu enclave of New Bandalong.

"It is time.", he says, "We will destroy all who oppose us."

---------------------------------------------------------

Hold on to your hats! It's about to get interesting...

Turn 201 - Shaddam is the most cultured, Scytale 2nd and us third. I trade techs with Ecaz - Social Mobility for Spice Industry and 10 gold.

Declared war on the Tleilaxu - it was too tempting. By 203 the assault on New Bandalong begins, the city falls in the same turn. Long live the fighters!

There is a dismal 2 Infantry counter attack towards Al Aqabah which is repelled with a single Hawk Thopter and Mahdi Zealots deal with a couple of Tleilaxu Suspensor Gunships.

Spent some gold to upgrade one of the defenders at Al Yassanah to a Master Guardsman to cover a bit of a gap in the Mahdi Zealot stream and cover counters. By the end of turn 204 I have 9 Mahdi Zealots and a Bladesmen healing in New Bandalong.

Al Aqabah is building a Temple of the Messiah for even more Mahdi Zealots. They are zero support so we should capitalize. Also, I get Sihaya Ridge building a Temple too.

Turn 205: Corrino ask for us to adopt Arrakis Spice civic. They are a big threat to us, but I defiantly say no.

We obtain a Great Burseg by attacking a pair of Tleilaxu Scout Thopters. Since Mahdi Zealots do not upgrade I decide the best thing is to send him back to one of our production cities to give a permanent boost to experience, science and culture.

Turn 207: Archduke Ecaz asks for Open Borders. I say no.

Great Prophet in Arrakeen. Following Ahriman's suggestion I decide to settle him in Kuriya our leading commerce city thanks to the Mahdi shrine.

Turn 210: Just as I am about to strike Al Mudawwar with my stack of 12 Mahdi Zealots and 1 Bladesman, Shaddam predictably declares war, going straight for Kuriya on our less defended southern desert flank.

I don't have enough forces nearby to take down the 1 Sus Gunship and 3 Sus Transports before they land their troops for the assault.

Al Mudawwar falls easily enough... (For some reason I decided to keep it despite the fact it is on top of a resource. Still it worked out sort of OK as you'll see.)

Turn 211: Deal ends Sword Grass for Baradye to the Bene Gesserit. Temple of the Mahdi built at Sihaya Ridge.

Turn 212: Ix asks for OB - decline. Kuriya is going to fall any turn. Corrino has deposited Hardened Bladesmen on our doorstep. Make peace with the Tleilaxu and they give us the antidote to their plague - our fighters need their strength to repel the devious House Corrino from our lands.

Soon after, Kuriya falls under the Corrino assault of Hardened Bladesmen, Imperial Militia and Quads just after I settle the Great Prophet there.

I give in to the Ordos demand for Jihad, I have enough on my hands.

Turn 217: Whilst scrambling my Mahdi Zealots down to Kuriya to recapture it, I decided to gift Al Mudawwar to the Fremen to improve relations and give them a bit of a push. We have -2 different religion and -1 for declaring war on their friends the Tleilaxu (bad taste in friends there). Decide to gift him some of our excess bonuses to try and improve things.

Turn 218: Kuriya recaptured by veteren Mahdi fighters before it comes out of revolt. It's a tough fight versus Imperial Militia and Hardened Bladesmen.

Turn 219: Liet-Kynes has adopted Mahdi!!! The gifting of Al Mudawwar gambit worked a treat. Our Atreides generosity won over his Fremen cynicism in the end. How will he serve Paul Muad'Dib in the future?

Liet is very weak - I'd almost be tempted to gift him a couple of settlers to help him out. It would be great if we could secure Fremen Water Debt for the powerful Melee units. Our Mahdi Zealots don't upgrade so they have a limited lifespan now that other civs are teching up.

So a bit of a crazy and eventful turn, but we still seem to be in fairly good shape. We have removed the Tleilaxu from our rock island.

One mistake I made (as well as temporarily losing Kuriya in the passion for conquest ) is not developing the spice near Arrakeen sooner. Still I've sent a couple of Workers over there to get them harvesters built double-quick.

Also, I settled the Great Burseg in Arrakeen so it can now build City Raider II Mahdi Zealots straight out of the box.

We are one turn off researching Great Houses and we are five turns of having two Atreides Heirs ready for further warmongering. (I forgot to say I teched Benevolence while all that was going on.)

(Oh, and I changed our name to Muad'Dib.)

 

[Ahriman]

Ouch.... how many buildings did we lose in Kuriya from the conquest and reconquest? That's gotta hurt. Ah well, at least we got it back.

Mahdi fighters with shock can do ok defending against the Corrino hardened bladesmen, for now. And we can try to get some thopters out in the desert to intercept any incoming transports.

We need to think about where we want to go techwise in terms of the tier2 units.
Personal shields for shield fighters?
Air power for falcon thopters and Wasp interceptors?

We should probably get some thopters together, and use them to raid House Corrino. We can do a lot of economy damage (and earn some gold) by pillaging from the desert with 3-move hawk thopters.

Then we want to pull together enough of an army to take the Tleilaxu polar cities and wipe them out.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Um, that was why I tried to build some guardsmen in our frontier cities, not just zealots (who, in their zealotry, don't know too much about guarding). Planes can wait a little until all our frontier cities (e.g. Wind Pass) have 3-4 defenders at least. I'm sure Kuriya will be attacked again, if not by Shaddam then by Ix.
Good job on the attack though.

 

[Slvynn]

Looking at the save now.

We have now have 13 Mahdi Zealots that can get next to the Tleilaxu border within the next two turns.

The current defense in New Bandalong is a Sus Gunship, 3 Infantry, Sus Transport and a couple of Scout Thopters.

I told you that AI need some defending tactics tweaks.

 

[Slvynn]

On game - that was intime. Yep i agree one building stacks of Thopters just to cover us from deser thread. Give them %str in Desert promotions.
My vote is for Air power beeline.
Also if we to attack distant Harks and Shaddam we need to focus now on pole clearing. Atm Shaddam and Baron are too far. Then we migh consider capturing city by transport stack, and gifting city to Fremen, to prevent recapture, and straighten Fremen and their belief of Mahdi.

 

[negyvenketto]

on warring
I don't quite understand how tleilaxu could found an early religion According the tech tree the Genetic Manipulation is still ahead and cost like 4000 beakers.
What should be the next tech for us? Desert Industry for the 11 str roller (and +1 water for wind traps) is nice. Chem. explosives will be needed sooner or later.
I would vote for Chem. expl. - Desert Ind. - Air power - Liquid fuel path.
If Saddam is too far, we could defend for a while, make peace if available and look for a closer target.

 

[Deliverator]

I don't quite understand how tleilaxu could found an early religion According the tech tree the Genetic Manipulation is still ahead and cost like 4000 beakers.

It is not that clearly documented, but the Tleilaxu religion is founded on turn 1 in their capitol every game. This is to set them apart as religious separatists.

I like Ahriman's suggestion of raiding Corrino with Thopters. Both Wind Pass and Al Yassanah have Pilot Schools. We can also build a Pilot School in Arrakeen where our Great Burseg is settled for even more experience.

The Tleilaxu have the most significant holdings at the pole by the look of it so taking their remaining cities would make sense.

 

[Slvynn]

That religion on Genetic manimulation should be removed. I think i reported that with some reference number.

Yeah, So Air power, thopters, defences, Zealots to capture pole.
Pillaging Shaddam land will help alot with our finances.
Harkonnen, Ecaz, Ix, Ordos. They are threat. Espessially Harkonnen, who is annoyed Wheooh.
We really need secure our land with thoptrs on desert tiles with specialized promotions. that will save us from building extra guardsmans, and from losing deep core cities to fast moving transport unloading enemy stack.
We playing war game, Holy war, so, i guess we need to focus on military so Air power > sonic tanks seem reasonable (with getting some offworld trade soonish)
We can also go towards terraforming, at some level that will help us, not too much though. Early air power, carryalls, hornets + pilot schools is great advnatage. Not all of them have rocket troopers.

 

[davidlallen]

on warring
I don't quite understand how tleilaxu could found an early religion According the tech tree the Genetic Manipulation is still ahead and cost like 4000 beakers.

Slvynn and several others have pointed this out also. There are two problems. One is a bug I do not know how to fix yet, and the other is a documentation improvement.

If I give "none" as the prerequisite tech for the tleilaxu religion, then founders of any religion get a dialog box to choose which religion they want to found. This is bad. So I have to pick some tech as a prerequisite. That is why it shows up in the tech tree. I have not figured out how to avoid this dialog box yet.

The documentation that Tleilaxu automatically found a religion appears in the civilopedia for the religion. However, nobody looks at the religion pedia entries. There is actually a lot of special behavior for religions besides this. How can I make this more obvious to beginning players? Can I add this documentation somewhere else also?

 

[Deliverator]

The religion pages are a bit poor anyway - they should really list the units and buildings associated with each. At the moment they don't really provide an overview of each religion's effects.

You could add a note to the Tleilaxu Civilization page to say "Founds Tleilaxu Zensufism in capitol on turn one".

 

[Slvynn]

Slvynn and several others have pointed this out also. There are two problems. One is a bug I do not know how to fix yet, and the other is a documentation improvement.

If I give "none" as the prerequisite tech for the tleilaxu religion, then founders of any religion get a dialog box to choose which religion they want to found. This is bad. So I have to pick some tech as a prerequisite. That is why it shows up in the tech tree. I have not figured out how to avoid this dialog box yet.

The documentation that Tleilaxu automatically found a religion appears in the civilopedia for the religion. However, nobody looks at the religion pedia entries. There is actually a lot of special behavior for religions besides this. How can I make this more obvious to beginning players? Can I add this documentation somewhere else also?

SL12
(Just give To BTL own tech (like Lanun have own one in FFH), which unlocks BTl religion, aviable only to BTl, and BTl starting with that tech, save mechanics as they are simply - just move Btl from Genetic manipulation to that tech)
SL13
Remove Choose religions option - its not good option for DW.

 

[davidlallen]

SL12 (Just give To BTL own tech (like Lanun have own one in FFH), which unlocks BTl religion, aviable only to BTl, and BTl starting with that tech ...SL13 Remove Choose religions option - its not good option for DW.

In FFH, Lanun have a visible tier 0 tech called something like "diving". (I don't have FFH loaded at the moment.) I can do that, except there is no room at tier 0 to place the tech onto the F6 tech chooser screen. I could place it all the way at the right, near the future techs, where there is room.

Another possibility is to make the tech invisible. I tried this. I set the x,y coordinates of the tech on the tech chooser screen to -1,-1. That makes it invisible fine. The only problem is that when you get hover help for the religion, it lists "Founded by First To Discover Tleilaxu Invisible Tech".

So, should the related religious tech be visible at the right, invisible, or something else?

 

[Ahriman]

Um, that was why I tried to build some guardsmen in our frontier cities, not just zealots (who, in their zealotry, don't know too much about guarding).

Mahdi fighters do just fine at defending, the issue is that they have to actually be there, it doesn't help if they're all off invading.

I told you that AI need some defending tactics tweaks.

?
How is the presence of scout thopters (transports) an indication of weak AI?
We blitzed them in two turns, they didn't have time to bring in any more defenders.

Three defensive units in a city is not normally unreasonable, its just that we beelined for very powerful assault troops, and these troops are perhaps a little too cheap/strong.

I would vote for Chem. expl. - Desert Ind. - Air power - Liquid fuel path.

I'm happy to get air power, but otherwise we should head either for personal shields or the wormrider tech (if we can pry water debt out of Fremen).
We need assault troops.
Offworld trade and way of Liet first though I think. Start the terraforming, and grab happiness goods before they're all gone.

The Tleilaxu have the most significant holdings at the pole by the look of it so taking their remaining cities would make sense

Agreed, and they will still be relatively weak. Once we get an Atreides heir, we can look at stomping their polar cities.

You could add a note to the Tleilaxu Civilization page to say "Founds Tleilaxu Zensufism in capitol on turn one".

Good idea.
Maybe there should also be a brief description of the religious unique effects (spread patterns, founding restrictions, etc) in the DuneWars Concepts section.

 

[davidlallen]

(redirect documentation discussion onto 1.6 feedback thread at this post)

 

[Slvynn]

reply to Ahrimans post redirected to DW forums.

 

[Slvynn]

I've looked into save, and few points:

1. We have some money aviable.
2. Captured capital have 2 wonders and priests settled.
3. I had very unpleasant experiences of leaving uneven defences in "far from enemy" cities. AI is smart at attacking. In such situations i lost cities.
4. Capital defended very poorly. We need to increase defences there asap. We also have money and with that money we can upgrade soldier stationed in capital to Master Guardsman.