Early Game, REXing, and the Economy on High Difficulty (Immortal+)

[Moogul]

Hi, I have a few questions regarding the early game on Immortal and Deity that I hope someone here might be able to help me with. I've read most of the War Academy articles and a lot of the forum posts here, but there's some things I'm still not sure of.

I'm currently a pretty good Emperor player and learning Immortal at the moment, where I'm not terrible, but still struggling.

My first question is regarding REXing. The last few games I've played I've been trying as the Portuguese for a change, and trying to leverage their Expansive and Imperialistic traits to expand early and claim some good land, but I've been surprised by just how hard the maintenance hits me on Immortal.

Distance maintenance seems to be the biggest problem at this level, where I'll try to drop a blocking city to cut off a nearby Civ from stealing my good land, and end up paying 3+ gold just in distance maintenance from that city. I'm finding that by the point I hit 3 or 4 Cities (this is on a Large map) that my Economy is already tanking down to around a 20% Science rate.

So the question is, how do you cope with this? Should I be growing my initial cities first before expanding past 2-3, or do I have to live with it?

Should I aim for closer cities rather than blocking, even if it means less land later? I'm normally getting blocking cities on good land, so it's not like they're just money sinks.

Should I drop my tech rate to 0% for a period whilst REXing, assume that I'll get behind in tech, and then when my cities and cottages start maturing, hope that my larger land + better cities will allow me to catch up on tech? If so, at what point should I be looking to stop research - are there key techs I need to get (eg. pottery? writing?) before the main REX stage?

Lastly, on Great People; still one of the weaker parts of my game. Only recently have I begun to fully appreciate the power of bulbing a good tech (eg. Philosophy) and trading it for large returns. How soon do people normally start their GPP farm on Immortal+? Do you build a library and run 2 scientists as soon as Writing is discovered? Do you beeline Writing early to get this out as soon as possible?

What early tech paths do people normally follow - Obviously worker techs are very dependent on the land available, but are there any key techs I should be particularly aiming for soon? I tend to grab Bronze working asap for chopping, slavery, and axes (for defenders, I haven't tried an Axe rush yet), Pottery and Writing quite quickly, and then Aesthetics for trade bait.

Lastly, what sort of power progression do you normally get in a high level game - do you expect to be behind in score and power for a long time, and then work your way up later in the midgame? I find it quite disheartening when in the early game I'm behind on tech, behind on land and behind on score, but is this something I should expect at high levels?

 

[troytheface]

block enemy civ expansion by the intial build -not secondary cities.

this is the superior

 

[madscientist]

Welcome to the forums!

I have only recently moved up to Immortal and can win there although not always.

I found the biggest problem is the early empire setup, similar to you. I generally do not worry much about the slider, but I make sure I get as much commerce as I can. This can come from precious metals (worth a city each), the coast, or being friendly for foreign trade routes. I will say the more cities you have the better you will eventually be, so REX is vital.

I also generally make sure I get the key early techs of Pottery (for cottages), Writing (libraries and scientists)m and Sailing (for foreign trade routes). Getting satisfactory commerce from riverside cottages and establishing coastal city trade routes are critical, while those beakers from scientists often speed me along. Once I have enough defense I either hit tradeable techs like Aesthetics, Alphabet, or go down the Currency/Code of Laws line.

The biggest problem I find is early defense against Barbs, so early axes/chariots or archers are vital.

As far as Great People, I typically use the first GS for an academy in the capital which is usually running 2 scientists for a total of 10.5 beakers alone (2 scientists x 3 beakers x 75% buildings)! The next GS usually start bulbing unless there is a second stronge science/commerce city.

Regarding dropping the slider to 0% to save gold, then upping it to research at a deficit will get you more beakers overall and is well worth it, if you can tolerate the tedious micromanagement. The BUG mod helps reduce the tediousness a bit.

Finally, I have found the best starts for myself on Immortal are to play aggressively and takea close enemy land. It fails too often, but these are usually the best Immortal games I get if successful.

Immortal aint easy, but it's definitely more playable than I once feared, and I can actually found a religion or build an early wonder or two once in a while.

 

[ppciv4]

block, and always whip it to keep maintenance low.

 

[Shafi]

i'm just a monarch level player so - please take this with a pinch of salt,

whip granaries / libraries + build research to somehow limp to currency and then build wealth to get to CoL, i guess if you get those two, your out of the woods ....

But yeah i must agree ... the most difficult thing as you move up difficulty levels is the city maintenance, i think moving from noble to Monarch thats the one thing i really have had to adjust to ....

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Settle commerce early, work cottages, or build GLH (or ToA, or pyramids if the game calls for it).

Get writing before you tank (hence settling commerce early, don't underestimate riverside sites early if there's no nearby gold/silver/gems to use).

Your key techs are currency, code of laws, and monarchy.

 

[Shurdus]

I think maintenance is not that bad, IF you are willing to slow down expansion somewhat. You will want to secure land for 6 cities at least. Once you did that you may want to focus on developing those. Grabbing monarchy and currency + CoL is essential. Is you plan on really REXing I'd say grab writing and alphabet soon. The scientists can keep research going, as can building beakers. If you miss those AND you have really rexxed you may find that you cannot build anything but units at one point which is really bad because building those will increase maintenance even further.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Pottery/writing will get you to alpha though it's slow. Rather than sinking hammers into units, you run specialists to eat up the food toward tech. Cottages are worked over other tiles to keep out of strike or push the slider when possible (pref after libraries are set up).

Once you've traded for or teched alpha you can quickly get other techs. I've had > 10 cities with no econ techs except pottery/writing and then got to alpha, built research for currency, then went monarchy/CoL. Sure the opening is slower but with 10+ cities peacefully you're going to be in good shape anyway.

Too bad on deity you normally won't get that many peacefully...you'll get the land taken before that . Any other level is pretty doable though.

 

[bestsss]

Pottery/writing is the key.
Hire scientists to drag you out of the misery. Keep research at zero, then build academy, tech something you can trade and gradually imrpove.

Jao is not a good next-level opener at all.
---
Axe Rush works on immortal, no problem. Yet, better be aggressive.

 

[Shafi]

Jao is not a good next-level opener at all.

why?

 

[Silu]

why?

The bigger maintenance of a higher level can stifle tech at a critical time. It's pretty easy to overexpand and for a short window more Workers just means more maintenance. I'd say any leader who gives any kind of economic boost would be better (excluding early rusher UU Civs since those can be pretty cheesy).

Btw, why do people call him Jao? I guess it's a Ghandi-like thing...

 

[bestsss]

..aside that (what Silu said) he has virtually no UB/UU. While you can block land easier, he has close to nothing to offer to rebuild the economy back. The freebie units decrease w/ going up, so like mentioned -> more workers, more coins to pay. More troops to defend (need basically 4 pop to get a troop/worker w/o maintenance).
If one has troubles to stay at zero slider and get back in the game the Jao (how can you type him w/ Joao for real) is not a good idea.

 

[beestar]

Lastly, what sort of power progression do you normally get in a high level game - do you expect to be behind in score and power for a long time, and then work your way up later in the midgame? I find it quite disheartening when in the early game I'm behind on tech, behind on land and behind on score, but is this something I should expect at high levels?

I'm interested in responses to this as well.

At Emperor I was happy to be behind at the beginning, knowing that I would come roaring back due to the various strategic advantages that human thinkers have over the AI, and by careful tech trading. Usually tech parity could be restored before Liberalism.

With Immortal, it's similar with a big tech disadvantage at the beginning and a catch-up around Liberalism. But there seems to be a phase where the AI surges ahead again in the industrial / modern era. This usually happens in games where I try to be peaceful and therefore only have 8-10 cities (or maybe 13 including some crappy islands). Games with early warfare were more successful, but I'm convinced that a peaceful space race is possible. Is it just me that sees the AI surging ahead later in the game?

 

[Iranon]

On Immortal, you should be able to out-expand the AI by a comfortable margin if you get a semi-decent start.
I think the largest number of cities I managed to settle peacefully by 1AD on default size&speed was 17, with Joao.

I do believe that Joao is the strongest leader for ultra-fast expansion if you know what you are doing but play a random map.
You have the early production bonuses to snag a high-impact wonder that will ease the economic burden (Great Lighthouse on a water map, but maybe the Oracle for trade bait should not be underestimated either), then expand rapidly while teching towards Currency.

You get more cities and you develop them more quickly thanks to discounted granaries... FIN and ORG leaders have a lot of catching up to do. However, since you have no passive economic bonuses, Joao is not very forgiving. If you do not connect your cities to the trade network or pick city spots that will not be profitable in a reasonably short time, you are simply using your advantages to shoot yourself in the foot more efficiently.

*

How familiar are you with alternative methods of raising money?

Deliberately failing wonders for cash allows you to build gold before Currency.
With the inofficial patch, you can still whip/chop for overflow gold although it's no longer ridiculously strong.
Once you have Currency, there is begging, demanding tribute, selling resources and techs... anything to keep you in the black.

*

This probably doesn't apply to everyone, but I rarely find myself needing dedicated blocking cities with Joao. You expand rapidly enough that you can settle fairly tightly (sharing tiles, working improved ones right from the start, circumventing a need for culture) without giving up too much land.

If an opponent is so close that you fear being hemmed in, Joao is actually a credible rusher: You have a head start thanks to cheap workers and settlers and you start with mining. If taking more than the capital isn't advisable, you can still get a little extra cash from pillaging and/or razing lightly defended cities.

 

[Lansky]

Chopped up for ease of answering

1. So the question is, how do you cope with this? Should I be growing my initial cities first before expanding past 2-3, or do I have to live with it?

2. Should I aim for closer cities rather than blocking, even if it means less land later? I'm normally getting blocking cities on good land, so it's not like they're just money sinks.

3. Should I drop my tech rate to 0% for a period whilst REXing, assume that I'll get behind in tech, and then when my cities and cottages start maturing, hope that my larger land + better cities will allow me to catch up on tech? If so, at what point should I be looking to stop research - are there key techs I need to get (eg. pottery? writing?) before the main REX stage?

4. Lastly, on Great People; still one of the weaker parts of my game. Only recently have I begun to fully appreciate the power of bulbing a good tech (eg. Philosophy) and trading it for large returns. How soon do people normally start their GPP farm on Immortal+? Do you build a library and run 2 scientists as soon as Writing is discovered? Do you beeline Writing early to get this out as soon as possible?

5. What early tech paths do people normally follow - Obviously worker techs are very dependent on the land available, but are there any key techs I should be particularly aiming for soon? I tend to grab Bronze working asap for chopping, slavery, and axes (for defenders, I haven't tried an Axe rush yet), Pottery and Writing quite quickly, and then Aesthetics for trade bait.

6. Lastly, what sort of power progression do you normally get in a high level game - do you expect to be behind in score and power for a long time, and then work your way up later in the midgame? I find it quite disheartening when in the early game I'm behind on tech, behind on land and behind on score, but is this something I should expect at high levels?

1. An organized or financial leader can be a large boon when moving up to a new level. Beyond that the only way to cope is to understand that above Emperor city maintenance is killer. It just takes some adjusting too. On emperor I always grabbed as much land as possible, fees be damned. Imm+ I started doing better when I realized that sometimes letting the AI grab more land than you'd like and taking it back later is okay. As others have said getting cottages down, aiming for luxury metals when possible, and even coastal tiles when you get really desperate can work. Though if you are bad off enough to work coastal tiles this early things are usually rather bad.

2. Very map dependent. If the blocking cities will get you good land then they could be worth it and more. If the blocking cities only really result in slowing down developing and settling equally good land you could have gotten anyway then maybe they were not worth it. The main thing to understand is that around the time you are looking at the "next big tech" after Liberalism you need to have a plan. Lots of land and a backwards empire is fine with Emancipation cottaging. A smaller technologically advanced empire will run over one or two longbow neighbors with cavalry. Both ways work.

3. I like to get pottery and writing prior to a complete crash. Working cottages pays bills and library scientists can crawl you to Aes or Alpha in order to catch up. Especially on a map with a lot of trading partners stagnating tech for a long period of time is fine if you can still beeline to good trade fodder in time.

4. Writing is one of the first techs I shoot for after BW and necesarry worker techs. I get out a library in the capital and wherever I plan to work 2 scientists asap (sometimes this is also the capital) in order to get an academy down - also in the capital. Understanding that the bulk of the midgame research will be from the capital in most games and playing to this fact helps a lot. Some city should always be generating a great person. My preferred way is the Great Library/NE combo. With marble this is an amazing and relatively cheap way to generate scientists without having to work many specialists or give up slavery.

5. Standard game would look like - Worker techs, writing/pottery/sailing maybe, Aes, Lit, Music if GA is a good bet, Civil Service, see what the AI's are up to and plan for Lib push. If the AIs are ahead a bit a Philo bulb here can be great for a very fast catch up.

6. Score is useless. Power is useless. Land while not useless, is usually harder to get. Before I make my "move" (via war or a tech burst tech or something else) I am last in power and bottom half on score generally. You only need enough power to live and since deterring a high level AI from declaring with your power score is impossible early game don't even try. Diplomacy is the only thing that will save you, along with luck. End up next to a Khan? Suck up to him, build a few spears/achers, and hope he hates someone more than you for the first part of the game. So essentially yes, the early game sets you up for the midgame break out. Do not expect to be ahead in anything early in the game. You'll just be dissapointed.

 

[lilnev]

You'll always start out last in score and power. Typically I'll pull ahead of a few lagging AIs in score sometime in the first millenium AD, and catch all but one or two by the Industrious or early Modern era. But score isn't all that meaningful anyway.

Power-wise, don't worry about anyone 1.5 to 2 times your power when you're peaceful. They'll have that simply from their larger cities and garrisons. Someone with three or four times your power is dangerous and requires diplomatic handling. When I ramp up for war, I may or may not get as high as my intended target -- probably not before rifles, when drafting can really spike the power graph, and maybe not even then.

Tech-wise, there's a phase when the AIs will usually be ahead around Currency/Calendar/etc, depending on how hard you REXed. I usually catch up and pull ahead through bulbing/trading and Liberalism. Then the AIs will have another surge around Sci Meth/Coporations/Steel/etc. Late game the AIs stratify, with a few who have gained land/vassals continuing to tech well and the rest falling distinctly behind. I think it has to do with how much they trade with each other vs how much of an edge I can get from bulbing and trading. WFYABTA doesn't hit AI-AI trades until much later because they're all playing at Noble.

 

[beestar]

On Immortal, you should be able to out-expand the AI by a comfortable margin if you get a semi-decent start.
I think the largest number of cities I managed to settle peacefully by 1AD on default size&speed was 17, with Joao.

I find I get easily hemmed in by the rapid early expansion of the Immortal AIs. All the plum city spots get snapped up, and I need war if I want to gain space for more than about 8-10 cities. Maybe I'm not settling densely enough?

(Note, I'm not choking the AI or anything)

 

[Silu]

I find I get easily hemmed in by the rapid early expansion of the Immortal AIs. All the plum city spots get snapped up, and I need war if I want to gain space for more than about 8-10 cities. Maybe I'm not settling densely enough?

(Note, I'm not choking the AI or anything)

Depending on the situation 8-10 cities is often enough to win the game peacefully. Pretty rare to get more than that peacefully, anyhow.

 

[Moogul]

Thanks very much for all the responses so far everyone, it's great to see some detailed discussion of this.

My current game with Joao isn't going quite so swimmingly, so I think I'll park it for now and try one with a financial leader, maybe the English (Elizabeth), and see if I can implement some of this a bit better.

A couple of further questions raised by reading this:

1) People mention that maintenance is affected by population - I didn't realise this, how much exactly does it scale, is there any kind of sweet spot for population to aim for?

2) How close should I aim to pack in cities? If I can found a new city that I can share a couple of food resources with from one of my earlier ones, but that doesn't have any particularly great (but also not bad) tiles itself, is it worth to do so? If by granting it the food resources for some number of turns I could grow it to the point where it could work quite a few grassland cottages, is that a good plan?

This would mean after recovering from the initial crash and having Currency + CoL I could backfill my land with more cities, but I don't know how 'good' a city has to be to be worth it - I tend to be very conservative when it comes to City placement, making them only where there are a collection of really good tiles, which means I'm probably missing out on having more cities.

 

[Silu]

1) People mention that maintenance is affected by population - I didn't realise this, how much exactly does it scale, is there any kind of sweet spot for population to aim for?

Linear scale. Before BtS rounding issues created such "sweet spots" but that's gone now.

2) How close should I aim to pack in cities? If I can found a new city that I can share a couple of food resources with from one of my earlier ones, but that doesn't have any particularly great (but also not bad) tiles itself, is it worth to do so? If by granting it the food resources for some number of turns I could grow it to the point where it could work quite a few grassland cottages, is that a good plan?

City overlap is very situation specific. Generally, what you described is a sound plan. A city without food or strategic resources is good if it has access to a lot of river tiles and grassland.