East Asia mod?

[Yoda Power]

Spoiler original post :

I'm starting to seriously considering posibly beginning on something that could develop into an East Asian mod.

I know there is already one mod in works, but it doesn't seem to ever be finished.

So I'm asking if people (Ogedei? BlueMonkey?) are interested in helping me out with historic knowledge, and stuff.

My main idea is to have 17-20 playable civs on an Asian map. Three of these would be different Chinese dynasties (I'm thinking Qin, Song and Ming) to avoid China having huge amounts of land for expansion. There would be probably four Indian civs too (Indus, Maurya, Vianargara and Mughals?), and ofcause some other civs, including nomadic ones and South-East Asian ones.

I got quite a few more ideas that I will try and lay down in the next couple of days, if people show interest.

Here's a list of content so far in this thread:

Civilizations - civ placement - city lists - Civilizations, traits, leaders and more - UU list
Flavour
Improvements - updated! - and again! - and now with wonders too!
Resources
Nomads!
Tech tree era 1 - Era 2 - Era 3 - Era 4

Dec 5th update - Christmas update - LATEST UPDATE!!!

 

[Yoda Power]

Here's a map I made for the purpose btw. You can click the image to enlarge.

 

[Stormrage]

I`m interested! Does this go all the way to Modern or..?

 

[Yoda Power]

Well as far as era's go, I want to focus a bit more than an epic mod. I was thinking on something like this.

Era 1: Bronze Age 4000 BC-1000 BC
Era 2: Iron Age 1000 BC-600 AD
Era 3: Classical Age 600-1200
Era 4: Medieval Age 1200-1700

That way I don't have to consider those stupid european really, but still have gunpowder and some modernish inventions.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I'll help in any way I can. We really need an Asian scenario, IMO!

 

[Yoda Power]

Ok here are my thoughts on civs. The bold ones are the ones I'm decided on. The other ones are open for discussion. The underlined refers to culture groups.

I know there are many possible civilizations, but I want to limit them somewhat, so all civs have a fair change to expand, in other words I don't want it too crowded in some areas.

Chinese
Ming
Qin
(Southern) Song
Nanzhao

Nomad
Mongols
(Western) Turks
Dzungars
Tibet - nomad only in gfx, not in gameplay.

Indian
Indus
Maurya
Vijayanagara
Mughals

Far East
Japan
Korea
Manchuria

Southeast Asian
Khmer
Majapahit
Burma
Sri Vijaya

 

[Stormrage]

So, wait, is this fixed on the map you made, or truly epic?

 

[Antiochus VII]

I'd love to help if I could - I had planned to do several Asian leaderheads anyway, but I could probably help in any areas needed to some degree. It wouldn't be at R8XFT speed though!

P.S. I finally have a decent supply of East Asian armor and clothing but might be a little thin on the South Asian.

Sample Current WIP:

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

That looks good, Antiochus VII! In terms of the mod itself, of course I'm interested; I've actually started doing an Anno Domini version that covers much the same area and similar civs actually!

 

[Virote_Considon]

I would say these civs are pretty important, too, for this region (although these are just ideas):

Chinese
Xi Xia - Areas around the Deserts west of China, would make a good buffer between the Chinese civs and Mongolia

Nomad
The Kara-Khitan Khanate could easily fit on the map, centered around Balasagun.
The Xiongnu may also be a good choice.

Indian
Bengal - Pretty important in Medieval India, may have problems with Maurya (Patna was the capital of both). They became quite powerful, powerful enough to resist the Mughals under their now infamous "Sher Khan".
Chola - An important Indian empire, which extended its grasp towards SE Asia. May pose a bit of a problem with Vijayarnagara being there, but if handled right, they could occupy South-Central India, and the Chola could occupy South/East India and Sri Lanka...

Far East
There are probably a couple of Japanese civs you could pick out and spread around the islands. I'd say add in the Wako for some southern Japanese pirate action.

South-East Asia
Perhaps split "Burma" into Myanmar (centered around Ava, or Pagan) and Pegu?
Dai Viet - Was a good buffer from the Mongols, in the scenario it could also be a good buffer against the Chinese, too.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'll happily help; most of my mental hypertext relates to South Asia, of course. I'm just recovering from a bout of drive failure as far as the graphics resources go (know some are missing, some are safe & about 2k or so randomly numbered files to sort out).

The subcontinent is roughly the size of Europe, so if your map is to an internally consistent scale that gives you an idea of how many civs it can accommodate. Give me a day or two to contemplate & I'll give you a list of civs whose starting locations fall in the main regions of the subcontinent (basically NW, NE, Central, & South). At first glance it's important to note that the Mughal Empire is a Persian/Central Asian aristocratic overlay on Indian culture & didn't really exist until about halfway through your era 3. The others you listed are indigenous.

As to more than one mod set in Asia - let's count how many versions of Eurocentric mods there are. We can afford more than one take on the region. I think most LH, Unit, & other PCX makers would be happy to see their creations in multiple use.

 

[Yoda Power]

So, wait, is this fixed on the map you made, or truly epic?

Well I want to have both a custom and random map version, just like MEM. I want to focus on the map quite a lot though.

I'd love to help if I could - I had planned to do several Asian leaderheads anyway, but I could probably help in any areas needed to some degree. It wouldn't be at R8XFT speed though!

P.S. I finally have a decent supply of East Asian armor and clothing but might be a little thin on the South Asian.

Sample Current WIP:

Looks nice. Who is it supposed to be?

I would say these civs are pretty important, too, for this region (although these are just ideas):

Chinese
Xi Xia - Areas around the Deserts west of China, would make a good buffer between the Chinese civs and Mongolia

Nomad
The Kara-Khitan Khanate could easily fit on the map, centered around Balasagun.
The Xiongnu may also be a good choice.

Indian
Bengal - Pretty important in Medieval India, may have problems with Maurya (Patna was the capital of both). They became quite powerful, powerful enough to resist the Mughals under their now infamous "Sher Khan".
Chola - An important Indian empire, which extended its grasp towards SE Asia. May pose a bit of a problem with Vijayarnagara being there, but if handled right, they could occupy South-Central India, and the Chola could occupy South/East India and Sri Lanka...

Far East
There are probably a couple of Japanese civs you could pick out and spread around the islands. I'd say add in the Wako for some southern Japanese pirate action.

South-East Asia
Perhaps split "Burma" into Myanmar (centered around Ava, or Pagan) and Pegu?
Dai Viet - Was a good buffer from the Mongols, in the scenario it could also be a good buffer against the Chinese, too.

I think Xi Xia might be too close to Qin. On the other hand there are some somewhat empty lands to the west. Maybe.

I think it would be easier to add Kara-Khitai than Xiongnu, since the latter probably overlaps some other civs.

As you say Bengal would be a good choice, but there really isn't room for them. Chola could be, but then I might have to remove Vijayarnagara.

I don't think there really is room for more Japanese civs. I did consider Ainu too, but I don't think Japan is big enough.

Same with Burma, I want to keep it at one civ. Then there's the question about Vietnam (Dai Viet), I'm not sure there is room for them either. Would be very cool to have them in though.

I'll happily help; most of my mental hypertext relates to South Asia, of course. I'm just recovering from a bout of drive failure as far as the graphics resources go (know some are missing, some are safe & about 2k or so randomly numbered files to sort out).

The subcontinent is roughly the size of Europe, so if your map is to an internally consistent scale that gives you an idea of how many civs it can accommodate. Give me a day or two to contemplate & I'll give you a list of civs whose starting locations fall in the main regions of the subcontinent (basically NW, NE, Central, & South). At first glance it's important to note that the Mughal Empire is a Persian/Central Asian aristocratic overlay on Indian culture & didn't really exist until about halfway through your era 3. The others you listed are indigenous.

As to more than one mod set in Asia - let's count how many versions of Eurocentric mods there are. We can afford more than one take on the region. I think most LH, Unit, & other PCX makers would be happy to see their creations in multiple use.

I'm looking forward to that list.

If USA can be in civ, then I'm sure Mughals can be in this mod too. They did became the super power in the last age of this mod.

 

[Antiochus VII]

Looks nice. Who is it supposed to be?

Not immediately obvious? HOPEFULLY it's Trung Trac - this era is the one I've actually had the most trouble with in terms of references, I've drawn on some descriptions of contemporary female Vietnamese warriors for this one.

P.S. I think you need at least one Thai (Nanzhao would be fine, the Thais filtered south from there) and one Vietnamese civ on your list. The Vietnamese civ could actually start anywhere between Canton and Hanoi on your Asian map if space is a concern. There was a Vietnamese state previous to the Chinese conquest as well as after giving you some leeway in terms of theme.

 

[Blue Monkey]

P.S. I think you need at least one Thai (Nanzhao would be fine, the Thais filtered south from there) and one Vietnamese civ on your list. The Vietnamese civ could actually start anywhere between Canton and Hanoi on your Asian map if space is a concern. There was a Vietnamese state previous to the Chinese conquest as well as after giving you some leeway in terms of theme.

How about Champa as a Vietnamese civ? I know they were a major diplomatic focus for both the Indians & the Chinese of the era.

Edit: I meant Vietnamese by geography, not ethnicity.

 

[Yoda Power]

The problem about Indochina is simply space. There can't be room for Thailand if I want the Burma and Khmer. Vietnam is more open for discussion, but the will probably end up as a miniput state if I put them in.

 

[Antiochus VII]

The problem about Indochina is simply space. There can't be room for Thailand if I want the Burma and Khmer. Vietnam is more open for discussion, but the will probably end up as a miniput state if I put them in.

You don't actually need 'Thailand' per se though - Nanzhao is the original homeland of the Thais which would hopefully be far enough north (Yunnan and Szechuan) to give you the space you'd need. The same with 'Vietnam' - they could start further north filling in the empty space in southeast China. For example:

Nanyue (or in Vietnamese Nam Việt) was an ancient kingdom that consisted of parts of the modern Chinese provinces of Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan and much of modern northern Vietnam. The kingdom was established by the Han Chinese general Zhao Tuo (in Vietnamese Triệu Đà) of the Qin dynasty who assimilated the customs of the Yue peoples in his territory. Its capital was named Panyu which is now Guangzhou, China.

 

[Yoda Power]

Yes Nanyue is a posibility. I was just under the impression that they weren't really a united kingdom but more a loose federation of tribes? I guess that's wrong.

Does Nanyue have some city lists, leaders etc.?

 

[Antiochus VII]

Does Nanyue have some city lists, leaders etc.?

Yes - depending on how many you'd need - there's always the possibility of adding in later eras of Vietnam if the list need be very long, Trieu Da would be your obvious leader if you wanted to focus on the Nanyue period of course. Lots of later choices if you incorporate later eras of Vietnamese history.

Just a rough idea of map placement (given your early civ list) if you put in Nanzhao and Nanyue. I think you'd have adequate room for both if you wanted them.

 

[Yoda Power]

Thinking about units lines I will probably do it along these lines. Some notes:

* Elephants ignores jungle and forest mov.
* Nomads should get another unit line.
* The Martial units are ninja's, shaolin monks etc. You can't have an Asian mod without martial arts. I think this is a fine way to incorporate them. Maybe martial artists should be amphibious too?
* Sea units are pretty simple, but I don't think there's a need for it to have a variety of different ship classes, since there's no modern era. There should probably be a pirate ship though.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Sounds interesting. If you're looking for some info on East Asia, take a look at my "Ogedei's Empire" thread in my sig.

I was thinking of doing an East Asia mod set at the end of the Tang Dynasty and leading up to the rise and twilight of the Mongol Empire. That period is highly interesting since it's one of the most competitive periods and produced all sorts of technological, cultural, and administrative innovations.

Having Chinese dynasties as the "Chinese" civs is kind of bizarre. There are other states in the area that could serve as a challenge to Chinese hegemony such as Balhae (quasi-Korean, quasi-Central Asian state), the Khitan Liao Empire, Dali, the Uighur Khanate, or Nanzhao. Another possibility is to divide China into the states of the Warring States period.

As for "Nanyue," Viets consider it to be a precursor state (and Vietnam was called "Nam Viet") so using cities of the Dai Viet kingdom would not be too much of a stretch. You could just have the state called "Viet"; it's quite broad term (and is like collectively referring to the midwestern Native American tribes simply as the "Plains Indians") but it covers more territory. Just before the Chinese incursion, there was also the Au-Lac kingdom ruled by An Duong.