Eckhart Tolle

[gozpel]

"Unhappiness is primarily due not to circumstances themselves, but what you think about them;"

Very easy to say to someone, that lost their family in a fire or similar. He didn't feel the pain himself, did he? Such a clown and just another grabber.

"People breathing in and out."

At least he's right there, if we humans didn't, he wouldn't have a hapless flock of sheep following him.

 

[gozpel]

This got me slightly angry really, where does all these "wonder-preachers" come from.

They prey from the poor and get wealthy and move to Bahamas when they're done.

We need Rambo and Arnold to sort this out. Of course under the lead of Chuck Norris!

 

[Borachio]

That's certainly a point of view, Gozpel.

Anyway, I'm quite taken with Tolle, I confess it. Show me it's all mumbo jumbo and I'll shut up.

I especially like his notion that bad man-made things are due to egoistical or "egoic" behaviour, if I've understood him correctly. People can be egotistical individually and collectively.

I've been trying to thing of something that this doesn't fit, and I haven't so far come up with anything.

He's using "egoic" in a particular way here. Egoic behaviour is action which is a result of people thinking themselves to be essentially (i.e. in the essence of their natures) either superior or inferior to others. So self-esteem and humility become really the same thing: so that I believe I am basically worth as much as anyone else, and at the same time I don't believe I'm better than anyone else.

So is this right?

What would happen if nations ceased behaving egotistically in this sense. What would happen to the economic and financial worlds?

These are weighty questions. So what would happen to posting behaviours on CFC? Would we have to recognize that we don't each of us a monopoly on the truth, and just maybe everyone's point of view has some degree of truth in it? Perhaps? What do you think?

 

[Farm Boy]

As in live selflessly rather than selfishly, forgive others, spread love? It all sounds terribly familiar Mr. B, but I can't put my finger on it.

Wherever it came from, I'm terribly happy if this message, however constructed, has landed with meaning in a fellow man.

 

[Borachio]

Um.. No.. Yes.. I agree, it does ring a bell somehow.

Something to do with the Aztecs, was it?

 

[Farm Boy]

Um.. No.. Yes.. I agree, it does ring a bell somehow.

Something to do with the Aztecs, was it?

Quite possibru. Need more coffee, not braining good atm.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Very easy to say to someone, that lost their family in a fire or similar. He didn't feel the pain himself, did he? Such a clown and just another grabber.

Things like that happen. Heartless to point that out? Show me the heart of the universe.

Chaos and order are human inventions. Minor natural inventions like fire will always overrule.

 

[Borachio]

Tragedies happen. There's no doubt about it.

But take the example from the Ted video about the guy in the wheelchair. The claim was that paraplegics are no more unhappy/happy than lottery winners three months after the event.

How do you explain that?

 

[Borachio]

Link to video.

 

[duckstab]

Tragedies happen. There's no doubt about it.

There's an oft-stated spiritual cliche: "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional". It's hard to swallow such a facile statement in the face of the genuinely tragic events that unfold in almost every human life. However, I think that the underlying idea it's pointing to is important. Often when we're confronted with something difficult, we layer a whole bunch of unnecessary garbage on top of the actual pain of the experience: "This isn't happening!" "I don't deserve this!" "It's all my fault!" "It's all somebody else's fault!" etc.

The question is, can we learn to be with, and fully experience, life's inevitable pains without losing our basic peace of mind?

 

[Borachio]

I do believe so, yes.

I've experienced my share of tragedy.

(In some minor way, I have to admit. But still the tragedies have been mine - and I believe they're comparable to what most people experience. I have no reason to think that I'm in any way different from anyone else, apart from being a somewhat inferior version - oh yes, and incredibly modest, too. )

Yet, there's always been some small part of me that has remained essentially unmoved through it all. A still small voice of calm, if you like.

It's a bit like getting very, very drunk. You might not be able to walk straight, talk clearly, or see very much of anything. But there's always this little bit of you that's somehow watching what's going on.

Does that make any sense?

 

[CivCube]

There's an oft-stated spiritual cliche: "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional". It's hard to swallow such a facile statement in the face of the genuinely tragic events that unfold in almost every human life. However, I think that the underlying idea it's pointing to is important. Often when we're confronted with something difficult, we layer a whole bunch of unnecessary garbage on top of the actual pain of the experience: "This isn't happening!" "I don't deserve this!" "It's all my fault!" "It's all somebody else's fault!" etc.

The question is, can we learn to be with, and fully experience, life's inevitable pains without losing our basic peace of mind?

Another saying goes, "Everything in moderation, including moderation." It's impossible to go through any tragedy completely unfazed. You'd be a sociopath if you could.

It's all about the choice you have as your own caretaker. When you are in pain, do you inflict more emotional violence against yourself? Or do you recognize your suffering and extend compassion to yourself? That requires a mindful, present-moment focus.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Meh.

I may not always be happy, but I'm not going to BS myself into feeling better. Sometimes being unhappy is the natural response to what's going on around you.

EDIT: And again I agree with MisterCooper. Con-artist.

 

[Borachio]

So, let me get this right. Even if you could BS yourself into feeling less unhappy you wouldn't?

Ok.

And you never think that some of your thinking is unproductive, repetitive, or harmful in itself in any way?

And yes, there is such a thing as con-artistry. A very great deal of consumerism is predicated on such tactics.

 

[AlpsStranger]

So, let me get this right. Even if you could BS yourself into feeling less unhappy you wouldn't?

Right.

And you never think that some of your thinking is unproductive, repetitive, or harmful in itself in any way?

Absolutely. I'm terrible obsessive and just slightly paranoid.

And yes, there is such a thing as con-artistry. A very great deal of consumerism is predicated on such tactics.

Sure, and Woo and spirituality are even dirtier than traditional religion when it comes to this stuff.

It's easy to see why as well. They promise to deliver you from both the disappointment of simply dying as a materialist and the potentially terrible fate that might await a dying person of a traditional faith. It's the religious equivalent of losing weight by eating all the watermelon you like. No diet. No staples in your belly. No huffing around in sweatpants.

( Though good watermelon does remain one of the finest foods in existence )

 

[Borachio]

Well, I did suggest in another thread that there are some people who enjoy being unhappy. I met some skepticism, it has to said.

But it looks like you might be one.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Well, I did suggest in another thread that there are some people who enjoy being unhappy. I met some skepticism, it has to said.

But it looks like you might be one.

I'm not always unhappy. Sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not.

 

[Borachio]

I see that could well be true, too.

But you seemed to imply that when you're unhappy you see no reason to try and not be unhappy.

And further that people who did attempt such a thing are rather deluded for trying.

But maybe you don't mean this.

 

[AlpsStranger]

I see that could well be true, too.

Of course it is. Almost nobody is always happy or always unhappy.

But you seemed to imply that when you're unhappy you see no reason to try and not be unhappy.

Not true. You should try to not be unhappy. But you should do something distracting to make yourself happy. Play a videogame. Do a simple chore. Paint. Read. Write.

And further that people who did attempt such a thing are rather deluded for trying.

Not always. If you're poor, crippled, and diseased somewhere in the third world then taking up some kind of otherworldly meditation or belief is justifiable. If you're dying of cancer and wasting away in the hospital then delusion might be preferable to reality. But for most of us in the first world, most of the time, it's probably better to practice a skill or fix a car than to delude yourself if you're feeling down.

If something horrible happens ( a friend or loved one dies, for instance ) then I think it's appropriate to mourn bitterly for a while. I always dislike religious funerals because they try to tell me that I didn't really lose someone. Well, yeah, I kinda did, and I resent you telling me I didn't.

But maybe you don't mean this.

I'm not saying to wallow in your unhappiness at all, no. I'm saying try to elevate your mood in a way that is connected to reality and not hostile to it.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not saying to wallow in your unhappiness at all, no. I'm saying try to elevate your mood in a way that is connected to reality and not hostile to it.

So in what way is Tolle saying that you should disconnect from reality?

He rather seems to be saying the reverse to me: that a great deal of unhappiness happens because of a disconnect with reality.

Maybe I've misunderstood him and/or you.