Egyptian Leader discussion and Poll

[Veras]

Yup. It could even be said to be racist. "We're gonna pick a Greek for your representative leader instead of a native Egyptian."

Wasn't Cleopatra born in Alexandria? Being born on a Greek occupied place doesn't make one Greek

 

[j51]

Wasn't Cleopatra born in Alexandria? Being born on a Greek occupied place doesn't make one Greek

Alexandria was considered "next to Egypt." It was the Greek colony from which the Ptolemies ruled Egypt. The Ptolemies inbred to keep their Greek blood and wouldn't even speak Egyptian. Cleopatra was, however, the exception to this, as she learned Coptic and presented herself as an Egyptian Pharaoh.

Sorry, I don't actually think Firaxis is being racist. I was being hyperbolic. Seeing 5000+ of Ancient Egyptian history being represented by its last ruler, who was from a line of colonial conquerors, really grinds my gears. Even if she herself tried to assimilate herself to the culture unlike her ancestors.

 

[Zaarin]

Alexandria was considered "next to Egypt." It was the Greek colony from which the Ptolemies ruled Egypt. The Ptolemies inbred to keep their Greek blood and wouldn't even speak Egyptian. Cleopatra was, however, the exception to this, as she learned Coptic and presented herself as an Egyptian Pharaoh.

Sorry, I don't actually think Firaxis is being racist. I was being hyperbolic. Seeing 5000+ of Ancient Egyptian history being represented by its last ruler, who was from a line of colonial conquerors, really grinds my gears. Even if she herself tried to assimilate herself to the culture unlike her ancestors.

Agreed. Of the plethora of options for great ruler of Egypt, Cleopatra is the worst.

 

[Virupaksha]

Highly dubious, not least of all since Atenism was henotheistic not monotheistic. The relationship between Atenism and Abrahamic faiths has been the subject of a great deal of parlor speculation, but I don't think any expert on Egyptology or the Ancient Near East gives it any credence.

Your distinction between monotheism and henotheism is unfortunately bogus in this context. Much of the early part of the bible can be read as Yahweh encouraging and coercing his followers into worshipping him rather than other Gods. A more perfect example of henotheism would be hard to find. The parallels with Akhenaten are striking.

"Parlour speculation" is a dismissive term. Do these so-called experts put forward an alternative theory as to the origins of Judaism. Would you dispute the exodus from Egypt being dated to shortly after Akhenaten's reign?

 

[EulerMcE]

I suspect they chose Cleopatra because they wanted somebody with her agenda (and to some degree simple marketability). I voted Hatshepsut, would have picked Ramesses had he not been in the last game.

 

[ubergeneral]

The thing that Egypt is most famous for is the pyramids and it's temples. In Civ 5 it makes the most sense that they were a wonder focused civ that preferred to keep to themselves because they were like that in real life. Rarely before the New Kingdom did Egypt have affairs outside of Egypt itself. And even then when they did have an empire that was trade focused as they did business with their subjects.

This isn't to say that they were push overs. When Egypt did business they were always the senior partner and if an ally rose up in rebellion pharaoh would arrive with his army to put it down.

Egypt should still be wonder focused, which is why an older pharaoh is a better choice, like Ra-messes II or Hatsheput. At least these pharaohs ruled in a time frame when Egypt was building temples. The last reason why a New kingdom pharaoh is good is because this is when the Hittites were strong making a rivalry between the two, sort of like Rome and Carthage.

But their agenda should keeping city state allies and trading with them. Not warfare, as Egypt is not militaristic and shouldn't be in civ either.

 

[Novu]

Wasn't Cleopatra born in Alexandria? Being born on a Greek occupied place doesn't make one Greek

Except Greece didn't occupy Egypt in Cleopatra's time or in the previous 200 years. In fact Greece wasn't even independent itself as Greece was conquered by the Romans in the 2nd century BC.

History lesson time:
Alexander the Great liberated Egypt from the Persians who had occupied Egypt since the 6th century BC. When Alexander the Great died in 323BC after only being Pharaoh for 1 year Egypt became fully independent but retained a single family as a new Dynastic line of Pharaohs. This is similar to American history in that after gaining independence from Great Britain all the early presidents were of English decent but distinctly "American." When Cleopatra became Pharaoh in 51BC Egypt had been independent for 272 years and their family had lived in Egypt for 15 generations. Keep in mind this is longer than America has existed and twice as long as Greece has existed as a unified country.

Bottom line here is Cleopatra is not Greek. She represents Egypt. She spoke Egyptian. She worshiped Isis and Horus NOT Hera and Zeus.

 

[sugerdady87]

Except Greece didn't occupy Egypt in Cleopatra's time or in the previous 200 years. In fact Greece wasn't even independent itself as Greece was conquered by the Romans in the 2nd century BC.

History lesson time:
Alexander the Great liberated Egypt from the Persians who had occupied Egypt since the 6th century BC. When Alexander the Great died in 323BC after only being Pharaoh for 1 year Egypt became fully independent but retained a single family as a new Dynastic line of Pharaohs. This is similar to American history in that after gaining independence from Great Britain all the early presidents were of English decent but distinctly "American." When Cleopatra became Pharaoh in 51BC Egypt had been independent for 272 years and their family had lived in Egypt for 15 generations. Keep in mind this is longer than America has existed and twice as long as Greece has existed as a unified country.

Bottom line here is Cleopatra is not Greek. She represents Egypt. She spoke Egyptian. She worshiped Isis and Horus NOT Hera and Zeus.

I don't think your analogy using America is fair at all. Those British aristocrats created the United States. There was no ethnocultural nation of Americans prior to that. Egyptian, on the other hand, is it's own ethnicity who's haplogroup can be pinpointed via genetic testing. From that standpoint, Cleopatra isn't Egyptian. As far as I remember, she was the only one in her family to even speak both Greek and Egyptian. The rest only spoke Greek.

 

[Zaarin]

Bottom line here is Cleopatra is not Greek. She represents Egypt. She spoke Egyptian. She worshiped Isis and Horus NOT Hera and Zeus.

Which was a political decision on Cleopatra's part, the first of the Ptolemies to do so. The rest of the Ptolemies spoke Greek and worshiped Serapis, a syncretistic Greco-Egyptian god, alongside other Greek and Greco-Egyptian gods.

 

[Novu]

Which was a political decision on Cleopatra's part, the first of the Ptolemies to do so. The rest of the Ptolemies spoke Greek and worshiped Serapis, a syncretistic Greco-Egyptian god, alongside other Greek and Greco-Egyptian gods.

As I mentioned previously in the thread the Ptolemies constructed the Grand temple of Horus in Ebfu. The temple of Horus is one of the signature Egyptian temples as it rivals Karnak, Luxor, and Thebes. They may have worshiped Serapis but they also definitely worshiping Horus for generations before Cleopatra.

Spoiler :

 

[m15a]

::shrug:: I'm neutral. Not saying anyone isn't allowed to be offended, but at least the stated goal of the developers (from some interview, I can't remember which) is not to choose leaders that are representative of a certain civ, but just one that is interesting as a leader particularly in terms of gameplay. Sounds pretty in line with the Civ V expansion goals. And not any less in line with civ/leader design since Civ I than choosing a representative leader. Doesn't seem like anyone ever explicitly stated that leaders are representatives of a civ (nor that they're good leaders).

EDIT: All that considered, I get there are still reasons why someone would be offended. I mean, I'd be offended if some European guy was the leader of India or China. (But at the same time, there's bound to be some occupiers in the game.)

 

[Zaarin]

::shrug:: I'm neutral. Not saying anyone isn't allowed to be offended, but at least the stated goal of the developers (from some interview, I can't remember which) is not to choose leaders that are representative of a certain civ, but just one that is interesting as a leader particularly in terms of gameplay. Sounds pretty in line with the Civ V expansion goals. And not any less in line with civ/leader design since Civ I than choosing a representative leader. Doesn't seem like anyone ever explicitly stated that leaders are representatives of a civ (nor that they're good leaders).

I will grant that Cleo is certainly an interesting personality.