Egyptian Leader discussion and Poll

[muhtesem insan]

I think it would be interesting if we had a more modern leader for Egypt, like Nasser.

 

[IkM]

I don't like pre-Ptolemy Egypt that much. So, my vote goes to Cleopatra VII.

 

[poom3619]

I think it would be interesting if we had a more modern leader for Egypt, like Nasser.

Modern Egypt are way different from the days of Saladin or Ptolemy Soter or Ramesses through. I think Firaxis would never used "Egypt" civ to represent anything beside Ancient Egypt, though.

It can be made into game by mod anyway. Although there are no Nasser's Civ5 mod AFAIK...

 

[Zaarin]

I think it would be interesting if we had a more modern leader for Egypt, like Nasser.

Personally, I hope post-18th century leaders are kept to the absolute barest minimum; in fact, I hope even post-15th century leaders are fairly scarce.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Personally, I hope post-18th century leaders are kept to the absolute barest minimum; in fact, I hope even post-15th century leaders are fairly scarce.

There was Isma'il Pasha of Egypt in the "Scramble for Africa" scenario, but they used Ramesses leader screen to represent him.

 

[IkM]

Personally, I hope post-18th century leaders are kept to the absolute barest minimum; in fact, I hope even post-15th century leaders are fairly scarce.

Same here! But up to 16th century is ok for me. I don't even like 17th c. leaders and I mostly avoid playing as them. For example in Civ 5, afair, I haven't played as france or played germany for really short time. But if they would have add a holy roman emperor or some kings for frankia, I would definitely try them.

 

[Westwall]

I want Cleopatra, but only if it's the hot ebony one from Civ Revolutions.

Moderator Action: Can we please not start down this road in this thread too.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[poom3619]

There was Isma'il Pasha of Egypt in the "Scramble for Africa" scenario, but they used Ramesses leader screen to represent him.

But he speak Arabic. That was something that Ismail Pasha' far more likely to compared with Ramesses II, consider Arabic language didn't exist in 13th century BC. So it's something, Right?

 

[muhtesem insan]

Personally, I hope post-18th century leaders are kept to the absolute barest minimum; in fact, I hope even post-15th century leaders are fairly scarce.

I'd normally agree but ancient Egypt is the most overused civilization on all mediums. So using more modern leader for Egypt would be interesting i believe.

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[dexters]

Egypt is in its own class as a civilization. It was great for thousands and thousands of years.

A Civ game without a Pharaoh would be all sorts of wrong.

 

[inthesomeday]

I would love Narmer, though Ramses is another good choice.
I definitely want greater representation of women in the game, but Egypt is not the best place for that. If you want female leaders, add civs that had female leaders that actually were the most significant to the civ's history. For example, put in Vietnam under the Trungs like in that mod, or maybe one of the component tribes of the Iroquois, many of which were matriarchal. The Iroquois is a bit less problematic than, say, the Celts, because it actually existed, but just like with the Celts there are much more interesting sub-units of the greater cultural whole, and I think that, like the Celts, breaking up said whole into smaller parts for better representation would allow more female representation in the leader body.
If you want Boudicca to lead, make the Iceni a separate civ. If you want females in the Egyptian leadership, make multiple leaders. However, historically, while Hatshepsut contributed greatly to Egypt's power (esp. economic), Ramses and Narmer just made greater contributions. Not at all to say that she isn't great, or that we don't need more women to be represented, there are just a) better places/civs to have them and b) better reasons for people who aren't Hatshepsut to be in the game.

 

[Novu]

I would love Narmer, though Ramses is another good choice.
I definitely want greater representation of women in the game, but Egypt is not the best place for that. If you want female leaders, add civs that had female leaders that actually were the most significant to the civ's history. For example, put in Vietnam under the Trungs like in that mod, or maybe one of the component tribes of the Iroquois, many of which were matriarchal. The Iroquois is a bit less problematic than, say, the Celts, because it actually existed, but just like with the Celts there are much more interesting sub-units of the greater cultural whole, and I think that, like the Celts, breaking up said whole into smaller parts for better representation would allow more female representation in the leader body.
If you want Boudicca to lead, make the Iceni a separate civ. If you want females in the Egyptian leadership, make multiple leaders. However, historically, while Hatshepsut contributed greatly to Egypt's power (esp. economic), Ramses and Narmer just made greater contributions. Not at all to say that she isn't great, or that we don't need more women to be represented, there are just a) better places/civs to have them and b) better reasons for people who aren't Hatshepsut to be in the game.

Are you aware of the great Egyptian temples Cleopatra built? Cleopatra commissioned the great Temple of Dendera which has culturally unique elements found nowhere else in Egypt such as the Dendera Zodiac:

Spoiler :

The historical Egyptian Arabic texts speak of Cleopatra as a great scholar and intellectual ruler. The complexity of star charts she created at Dendera show that she had a better understanding of Egyptian mythology and astrology than any previous Pharaoh.

Her reign also saw the completion of the Temple of Horus in Ebfu which was started 200 years prior in Ptolemaic Dynasty. The Temple of Horus rivals The temple complex at Karnak.

Spoiler :

The Reign of the Ptolemaic Dynasty particularly the reign of Cleopatra saw revival of Egyptian culture. This is in addition to the Great Library and Pharos Light house of Alexandria.

 

[j51]

Novu, are you Cleopatra? C'mon, admit it. It's ok.

 

[Teproc]

People voting Cleopatra is why we can't have nice things. She's great and all, but she needs a Ptolemaic/Hellenistic civilization if you want her in the game.

Also, Hatshepsut is, like, right there. Possibly the most impressive female ruler in the history of mankind ? Yes, Ramses is more important overall, but he just had his turn in V, and having female leaders is good for the game.

 

[bite]

I have always found Queen Hatshepsut really interesting, but the thing with an empire that lasted so long (more or less) is that there are a lot of really good choices for leader

 

[inthesomeday]

I have always found Queen Hatshepsut really interesting, but the thing with an empire that lasted so long (more or less) is that there are a lot of really good choices for leader

This is more or less my argument here. Hatshepsut is lovely, and if her historical legacy was part of a different civilization she would definitely earn my vote. But for the same reason we shouldn't have Gandhi leading India, or Peter leading Russia, or Charlemagne leading Germany, there are simply more relevant leaders that could better represent the civilization, in civilizations with long, extensive histories.
There's that aspect, which is to say that even though women absolutely need greater representation in the game, Hatshepsut simply doesn't outweigh Narmer or Ramses as the greatest leader of Ancient Egyptian history. Then the other argument is that there are better women to include for other civilizations, which would lessen the pressure on Hatshepsut to be one of the game's few female leaders.

 

[Zaarin]

Then the other argument is that there are better women to include for other civilizations, which would lessen the pressure on Hatshepsut to be one of the game's few female leaders.

Like who? The only ones that come to my mind as being more obvious than Hatshepsut are Elizabeth, Victoria, Isabela, and Catherine--and I think we can all rest assured that three of the four will be in the game eventually. Let's be honest: in pre-modern times strong female rulers are hard to come by. They certainly existed and Hatshepsut is certainly among them, but it's not like every other empire was ruled by a woman. This is further complicated by the fact that many women, even if they managed to come to power, had a great deal of difficulty holding on to that power because their male subjects didn't respect them. Was Hatshepsut's reign as significant as Ramesses II's? No, probably not. But Ramesses was in the last game and was honestly one of the more boring AI personalities; the two most obvious choices to replace Ramesses are Hatshepsut and Akhenaten. I would be fine with either, but given the dearth of powerful female rulers to choose from, Hatshepsut just seems like an obvious choice.

Also, your ideas of Iroquoian matriarchy are rooted in 19th century "noble savage" romanticism. The Iroquois were matrilineal, yes, as were the majority of Native American cultures and as were the Egyptians, for that matter. And in some respects women did have a greater degree of power in Iroquois society than in American society: they owned the land and they were also (sort of) responsible for vengeance wars. However, in other ways they were just as bad off as their white counterparts, and, while there were female sachems of individual Iroquois tribes, at no time was this the norm. Matriarchy has never been normal under any society discovered so far, fringe theories about the "Old Europeans," "Minoans," and various Native American tribes notwithstanding...

Honestly, if I were to be a woman in any pre-modern society, I'd hope to be an upper class Egyptian woman, where owning land, running businesses, holding high offices (including scribes and priestesses), and generally making my own decisions about marriage would be options for me.

 

[Scorched Earth]

If Firaxis wants to continue to diversify things and balance gender representation (which I think is good), I think they should take advantage of an important and iconic female representation of a civ when one's available.

So... Hatshepsut. If there's enough female representation from other civs, then Ramesses.

Agreed. If Firaxis has some quota to meet for female leaders, Hatshepsut is definitely one of the better choices. I would much rather have her than say, Dido or Maria I.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Agreed. If Firaxis has some quota to meet for female leaders, Hatshepsut is definitely one of the better choices. I would much rather have her than say, Dido or Maria I.

Agreed.

 

[Virupaksha]

Akhenaten. Most interesting pharaoh for me. By inventing western monotheism and founding the jewish religion which led into both christianity and islam he had a far greater impact on world history than any other pharaoh, Cleopatra's seduction of JC changed nothing except fleetingly, there is no comparison.