Electric vehicles

[Birdjaguar]

To be clear, this is not about autonomous driving, but about teledriving. There is a remote operator remotely driving the car to you. After an initial greeting, the operator hands over control of the vehicle to you and the customer takes over driving the car.

If I am hiring a car, I am doing so that I do not have to drive. When we fly to St. Louis to visit our daughter, I want Lyft to get me to their house. I have no interest in figuring out how to get from the airport to Webster Groves.

 

[Samson]

I have no interest in figuring out how to get from the airport to Webster Groves.

That is one job that smartphones have made loads easier.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That is one job that smartphones have made loads easier.

Yes they have, but for us Lyft and Uber are all about "not driving." In addition, if one is a foreign city, one's phone may help with roads and turns, but not with actually navigating the "rules of the road" in Rome, Wujan, Berlin or Paris.

 

[Ordnael]

Yeah the whole "we are cheaper than Uber" shtick is misleading and they shouldn't be using it because in essence the service they provide is very different but also very interesting. I picture it as useful to go pick groceries without actually owning a car, just a driving license. This could be the second car so many families have/need without actually paying for a whole car but just paying for each ride they need, without costly leasing and limited to uber/cab like transportation.

 

[Ordnael]

Scary stuff!

Testimony: this is why Adrien's damaged MG4 has been immobilized for 9 months​

Témoignage : voici pourquoi la MG4 accidentée d'Adrien est immobilisée depuis 9 mois

C’est en roulant sur l'A13 qu’Adrien a été surpris par un sanglier. Malgré le violent choc, personne n’a été blessé à bord de la MG4.

www.automobile-propre.com

It was while driving at 120-130 km/h on the A13 motorway last February that Adrien was surprised by a wild boar. Despite the violent impact, no one on board was injured. The MG4, on the other hand, suffered greatly. On paper, however, it would not take long to repair it, but the manufacturer is far from being responsive in providing the necessary documents and bringing in parts from China.

Two electric cars in the foyer​

a Citroën three years ago, Adrien Just was driving by electric car. I first took a Volkswagen e-Up! which I still have. But after a year and a half, I wanted a model more suited to long journeys. I got rid of the Xantia whose odometer showed more than 350,000 km to benefit from the conversion bonus by signing for an MG4 .”
Our 27-year-old reader hesitated for a while with a Tesla Model Y Propulsion then priced at 42,000 euros: “ Working for a vehicle rental company, I had heard good things about the MG4 . I looked at the technical specifications and deduced that, in terms of quality/price ratio, it was pretty good. With the Model Y, I would have had between 50 and 100 km more autonomy, but it would have cost me 8,000 euros more .”

The MG4 in Luxury finish arrived in the home in September 2023. Going to Normandy from the Paris region with his wife on February 13, he did not expect to be stopped dead on the motorway: “ We had 250 to 300 km to go. About a hundred kilometers from Paris, on the A13 motorway, near Louviers, a wild boar weighing 80-100 kg emerged from the side of the road. I was driving at 120-130 km/h. It was around 11 p.m.: there weren’t many people there, fortunately .”

“The MG4 had exemplary behavior”​

Adrien is convinced, “ the MG4 had exemplary behavior. I was pleasantly surprised. The airbags were triggered correctly and the high voltage battery was secured. The car, which then found itself freewheeling, did not deviate from its trajectory. I was able to reach the emergency lane and stop the vehicle. The automatic call to 112 was made correctly .
The Ile-de-France resident still can't really believe it: “ No one was injured inside, not even our dog or our two cats. We didn't need emergency services, just a tow truck. However, the shock was very violent: the wild boar died instantly. The material damage was significant: the entire front part of the vehicle was smashed .”

When the MG4 leaves for the plateau, the electromobilist does not imagine that he will be deprived of his car for months : “ It was repatriated to the MG dealership in Evreux. As it does not carry out bodywork operations, my vehicle was sent to Louviers to a partner establishment. This is where the expert appointed by my insurance came to observe the damage to produce his report. The downward spiral then began .”

Six months to receive the expert report​

Already three months wasted to obtain a simple document: “ As I had no news, I had to make numerous phone calls to my insurer, the appraisal firm, the bodywork and the dealership. The expert ended up telling me that neither he, nor the bodybuilder, nor the dealership had at their disposal the exploded diagrams of the vehicle allowing them to identify the parts to be replaced. It took three months and reminders to MG France and MG Europe for him to finally receive the documents .”

However, this is not the end of the story: “ The documents did not mention the unit prices of the parts. We had to ask for them. The protocol to follow regarding the battery in the event of an accident was also missing. On certain electric cars, if the airbags are triggered, the pack must be replaced. In July 2024, MG had still not communicated this protocol. For five months, I couldn't know whether repairing my car would be economically viable .”
The answer finally arrived: “ MG does not systematically require battery replacement in an accident like the one I experienced. Otherwise, the total amount of the intervention would have amounted to around 22,000 euros. It would then probably not have been repaired. In this story, even the dealership had difficulty obtaining information from MG France .”

Not sure we'll find the MG4 before the end of 2024​

In his report dated August 28, 2024, the expert estimated the repair of “ apparent damage ” at €9,123.80 including tax after applying a 3% discount. Without the latter, the part including tax for the parts amounted to approximately 8,171 euros for 1,236 euros of labor: “ It ultimately took six long months to obtain the expert report ”.

Adrien's[/URL] damaged MG4
The latter indicates only two and a half days of work. Not so simple again: “Approximately 80% of the parts needed to repair my car are in stock in Europe. The rest must be shipped from China by cargo ship, again with a three-month delay. It is the extent of the damage to my MG4, requiring parts that are not usually replaced, that is causing this problem .”

There will still be one essential step: “ The expert will have to observe the work carried out. I was made to understand that if I got my car back at the end of 2024, that would be very good. I'm disappointed. It's very annoying to think that we have to face more than ten months of waiting for an intervention that will ultimately only take two and a half days. In the meantime, I pay rent of €350 every month and €75 in insurance for a car that I cannot use .”

At least 4,250 euros lost​

In this case, Adrien observed: “ Everyone is passing the buck. My insurer tells me that it is because of the expert if I had to wait so long, the expert blames the bodybuilder and the latter points to MG France. In the end, the one who gets fooled is me! After 10 months, I will have lost €4,250. I was not entitled to a replacement vehicle or compensation from MG .” Our reader warns: “ All motorists who drive in France with Chinese cars like BYD, Zeekr or others risk experiencing the same misadventure as me in the event of an accident. Today, due to its lack of responsiveness, I would appreciate it if the builder made a gesture, for example regarding rents, even if the partner financing organization for the LOA is Sofinco .” n his misfortune, the young electromobilist benefits from a small advantage: “ I still have my Volkswagen e-Up! in LLD that I can use as a replacement. I didn't want to return it early because of the penalties I would have had to pay. If I had had to rent a replacement car, the total cost would have been simply unbearable .”

Want to drive very fast again with your MG4​

This is not necessarily very common after the situation he is experiencing, but Adrien does not transfer to his car the disenchantment that he may feel towards the brand today. This is in particular because of the exemplary behavior of his MG4 during the accident: “ I blame the after-sales service. I get the impression that they pretty much don't care about the customers once the car is sold. On the other hand, the MG4 did not disappoint me .”

In five months, he had time to appreciate his electric compact over a little over 10,000 km: “ Its charging power of 140 kW allows you to go far. From the Paris region, for example, I went to Andorra. It's about 900 km from my house. I’m really looking forward to seeing her again and I really want to continue riding with her .”

Our reader, however, points out promises that have not been kept by the brand: “ For the end of 2023, a first remote update (OTA) was promised. This is not the case. We also had to have a route planner. It is still not deployed. That’s already almost a year behind us .”

 

[EnglishEdward]

The rest must be shipped from China by cargo ship, again with a three-month delay.

Why?

There is that thing called air freight.

 

[Samson]

There are so many whys with that story. The 2 that struck me are:

On certain electric cars, if the airbags are triggered, the pack must be replaced.

The expert will have to observe the work carried out.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Why?

There is that thing called air freight.

Seems like the carbon footprint from that defeats the purpose of having an EV.

 

[Farm Boy]

The point of a particularly expensive EV is trendy conspicuous consumption? Like a corvette(you see them around here, almost always driven sedately, enough that i often forget they're legit fast). If it wasn't, Fiestas and Geos would have been bigger hits. But that may be regional.

But if the car is efficient, sending small parts by air to get it working is probably more efficient than taking up the entire production of a different vehicle to meet the need the EV is not filling while out of service.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The point of a particularly expensive automobile EV is trendy conspicuous consumption?

FTFY

 

[Farm Boy]

Right!

Like a corvette.

The edits are slow.

 

[Ordnael]

Jaguar Is Buying Back 2,760 Faulty I-Pace EVs Over Fire Risk​

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/11/jaguar-is-buying-back-2760-faulty-i-pace-evs-over-fire-risk/

Jaguar is going to extreme lengths to deal with a fire risk problem on its recently-axed I-Pace EV. The British automaker has agreed to buy back 2,760 2019MY examples sold in the US to get the situation resolved, at least in its customers’ eyes.

The problem relates to concerns about batteries overheating and potentially catching fire, something that has been an issue with the I-Pace for several years now. Previous recalls have applied software-based fixes but data revealed that some 2019 cars that have received the remedy are still suffering thermal overloads. To date, three of the 2019MY EVs have caught fire despite receiving a software update.

Related: Jaguar I-Pace Owners Told To Park Outside After 3 Fires Involving Previously Recalled EVs

In August Jag told owners to park outside and away from buildings and announced that another code update would limit the car’s to an 80 percent charge as a temporary fix. A “permanent remedy is under development,” the company said at the time, and this month we learned that the permanent remedy means Jaguar dipping into its pockets to buy back almost 3,000 cars.

The good news for Jag is that the I-Pace has suffered from horrific depreciation, so the bill, while still huge, isn’t going to be as big as it could have been. And we imagine a large proportion of the affected owners will be glad to see the back of their trouble-prone cars, even if they are great to drive and they end up with less to spend on a new car than they were hoping.

Ordinarily, a story about a carmaker having to buy back thousands of six-year-old EVs due to a safety issue would be a PR disaster for the automaker involved. But after having been subjected to a week of ridicule over its attempts to rebrand, Jag execs are probably delighted that an I-Pace recall has nobly offered to deflect some of the attention.

Jaguar is relaunching itself as an electric-only Porsche and Bentley rival and will show a concept version of the first of three new models on December 2. To underline the shift, Jag has killed off its entire current model line and come up with new logos and branding that were met with derision and confusion online.

I wonder if other BEV are on the road that suffer from similar risks but the manufacturer has been keeping quiet about it or the regulator has insufficient leverage to force a recall/buy back.

 

[Farm Boy]

That would sound like situation normal.

 

[EvaDK]

Jaguar Is Buying Back 2,760 Faulty I-Pace EVs Over Fire Risk​

...

I wonder if other BEV are on the road that suffer from similar risks but the manufacturer has been keeping quiet about it or the regulator has insufficient leverage to force a recall/buy back.

China experiences +2,000 EV fires annually - meaning those are the ones that are recorded.

A substantial contributor to that number are battery powered scooters that sometimes also start an apartment block fire, because the owners keep and charge them inside their homes, or in the hallways.

 

[Ordnael]

Do electric cars really cost less to manufacture than thermal cars?​

Les voitures électriques coûtent-elles réellement moins cher à fabriquer que les thermiques ?

Le prix des voitures électriques reste élevé malgré une conception plus simple, à qui la faute ?

www.automobile-propre.com

The price of electric cars remains high despite a simpler design, who is to blame?

The automotive sector is also a world of paradoxes. While it is often admitted that an electric car is “simpler” to manufacture, and that the number of parts used in its composition is less important than in a thermal car, and that power is no longer really correlated to manufacturing cost, it remains even more expensive to purchase, for an equivalent range. Why this differential to the disadvantage of electric, when everything suggests that it should be the opposite? In fact, there are several reasons for this, and you will see that everything is not as simple as it seems.

A much lower number of parts on an electric one than on a thermal one​

No need to draw a picture for yourself, it is now common knowledge that an electric car has many fewer parts – especially moving parts – than a thermal car. Exit the gearbox and all its dependencies (except on a few models which can still be counted on the fingers of Captain Hook's left hand), exit the clutch, exit the intake and exhaust systems, exit the tank of fuel, no more complicated transmissions between front engine and rear axle since generally the engine is an integral part of the transmission. This is to only talk about the visible and obvious part. But it is in the engine that the difference is most spectacular. Indeed, depending on the brand (and depending on the sources, which vary quite a bit on this point), an electric motor would only have around twenty moving parts, compared to 200 to… 2000 for a thermal engine. I admit that I didn't go and count, but that's what generally emerges from the data on the subject. In any case, that's the idea, and it's abysmal.

The cost of batteries remains a heavy weight on the scale​

Therefore, one would indeed logically expect an electric car to cost less. Unfortunately, this is not yet the case. For what ? The answer to this apparent contradiction lies mainly in the central element of the EV: the battery . Indeed, what we can consider as the heart of an electric car represents a significant part of the total production cost. Lithium-ion battery technology, while constantly evolving, remains expensive, particularly due to rare materials and complex manufacturing processes. Another factor to take into account is the size of the battery , directly linked to the range of the vehicle. The greater the desired autonomy, the larger the battery and therefore the more expensive it is.

Okay, but what is the real impact of this on the cost of the car? Despite a spectacular drop in kWh prices over the last 15 years , it is said that the battery still accounts for 40% of the total price of an electric car. However, the cost is expected to fall further over the coming years. According to a recent study by Goldmann Sachs, we have already seen a very slight drop in the price of the battery pack per kWh between 2022 and 2023. Over this period, the kWh lost on average 4 dollars, going from $153 to $149 . But the analysis is intended to be confident about a big drop to come between 2024 and 2026. According to this, the price per kWh will reach around 110 dollars this year . Above all, the biggest prediction is a move below the $80 limit in 2026.

The impact of innovation and production​

Another cost item is research and development. The development of EVs is still relatively recent, which means that research and development costs are high and must be amortized over a lower number of vehicles produced than for thermal vehicles since the scale of production of EVs is still limited compared to to gasoline vehicles, which impacts the unit manufacturing cost. The arrival of new players on the EV market, notably Chinese manufacturers, has made it possible to offer more affordable models. However, these vehicles are often positioned in the entry-level segment, with less sophisticated finishes and technologies than high-end EVs.

We must also take into account the costs linked to battery and energy management with the famous BMS – Battery Management System – synonymous with sleepless nights for many engineers in the sector, and of course all the costs linked to electronics and on-board computing, often considered more advanced, or in any case more crucial to the proper functioning of an electric vehicle.
In summary, lower hardware costs, but higher software costs.

Almost equivalent labor costs​

We often hear that, thanks to a reduced number of components under the hood, electric vehicles require 30 to 40% less labor than thermal cars. However, the reality is more complex, and some researchers believe that these labor savings have been greatly overestimated.

According to an analysis spotted on CNN , "People assume these estimates are correct," according to Turner Cotterman, a researcher who worked on a Carnegie Mellon University report and currently a partner at McKinsey & Company. “They are mainly based on the number of moving parts in an EV. As electric cars have fewer parts than thermal vehicles, it is concluded that they require less work to manufacture. » The researcher points out, however, that there is an erroneous assumption according to which there is a linear relationship between the number of parts and the labor required to produce them.
Erica Fuchs, also a Carnegie Mellon researcher and Turner Cotterman collaborator on this report, qualifies this idea: manufacturing the EV powertrain – including batteries, electric motors and energy management systems – actually requires more of work than that of the engines and transmissions of thermal cars.

Similar conclusions were made by the Boston Consulting Group, which found that the complete manufacturing of an electric vehicle, beyond its powertrain, requires in total only slightly less labor than a vehicle thermal: “If we compare an electric vehicle and an internal combustion vehicle equivalently, we observe a difference of only a few percent in the number of working hours required to manufacture them. »

This and other research reveals that the total labor difference between EVs and combustion cars is small. Gerald Johnson, executive vice president of manufacturing at General Motors, agrees in a video posted on the company's website about union negotiations: "Our own analyzes at General Motors, as well as other studies, confirm that the workforce required for the production of electric vehicles will be very similar to those required today for an equivalent thermal vehicle. »

Are manufacturers protecting their margins excessively?​

This is a subject less discussed when we talk about the electric car ecosystem, and yet certain indications suggest that it also weighs in the balance. Manufacturers, whether European, American or Chinese, have in recent years attacked the EV market from above, and therefore from the top of the range. Everyone says it and complains about it: electric cars are – still – too expensive, and the market is still cruelly lacking in small, versatile city cars for less than 20,000 euros . Proof that manufacturers still have it under their belt when it comes to margins? Look at how some are able to collect new penalties of several thousand euros without this having the slightest impact on their public prices...

The Big Evening for 2027?​

Despite this data, experts agree that the cost of producing EVs is constantly decreasing . Increasing demand, improving battery technologies and optimizing manufacturing processes are expected to help make EVs more accessible in the years to come. Concretely, the Gartner firm is banking in its latest study released in March 2024 on a tipping point in 2027 , the year when the construction of an electric car would become less expensive than that of a thermal car, a new situation which should in all likelihood be reflected in sales prices.

If we add to this data a total cost of ownership and use more favorable to electric, and reasonably optimistic forecasts for 2025, we say that the planets are perhaps aligning again ?

 

[Samson]

In summary, lower hardware costs, but higher software costs.

I have said it before, I do not believe it. If software costs are in the billions then someone must be employing coders by the tens of thousands, and I do not see any car companies doing that.

 

[EvaDK]

Everyone says it and complains about it: electric cars are – still – too expensive, and the market is still cruelly lacking in small, versatile city cars for less than 20,000 euros .

Agree with this. I would have zero interest in a heavy sedan or SUV type EV with a huge battery and long range, which unfortunately seems to be what the automakers are doubling down on year after year.

What I would consider when the time comes to replace my hybrid, is a mini size EV with a smaller, lighter battery with, say a ~200miles/300km range; a battery I could recharge to +80% in ten minutes or less. Preferably a solid state battery, which solves some of the disadvantages of current lithium-ion batteries.

 

[Ordnael]

I have said it before, I do not believe it. If software costs are in the billions then someone must be employing coders by the tens of thousands, and I do not see any car companies doing that.

I think the author was trying to to put battery cost in the same basket as software costs when, I agree with you, it's not!

 

[Samson]

Top selling cars in China. If we were offered things like this I think the change over could happen really quickly.

Looking at some of them, I do not think I can actually buy them but they seem to be offered. We are not being allowed the vehicles that could change the world.

Top place:

5th Place, a 5 grand car with a lifetime drivetrain warrantee!!

 

[Farm Boy]

Do you think the supply chains could handle the batteries? I think they would not be able to.

Which is why an Assclown's toy brand over here can outcompete, with subsidies to rich people, the manufacturers regulars drive. Also why smellyman the "capitalist" doesn't want newer, better, companies to get what he got out of California in the way of hand outs.