Emperor Cookbook V: Saladin

[ChromiumL]

I would make a fancy post with links to all saves--but that seems sorta counter-productive now that people already have great summaries of saves (thanks to those who made the effort--thats a lot of work). Lets vote through Tuesday/Wednesday depending on how quickly we get votes posted.

As far as shadows go--its fine to post saves (so that we can all look in awe), as long as you make it clear that the save isn't eligible for votes. I request that anyone who plays at Immortal level (or has a clearly overly-superior save) usually 'shadow' rather than actually submit saves for votes (as overpowered saves early on = boring game with less learning opportunities). This means we can all thank Soirana for the example of awesomeness, but that we will NOT vote for the save, since s/he asked us not to.

Also--I don't think there is anything wrong with defending with 3 warriors (with archers on the way) on a save where you have very amazing defensive terrain (mountains and peninsula). Not sure what the obsession with metals is, I would rather defend with archers (especially since we are protective) than place a lame city to get a metal on line more quickly (I'd rather just hold out for border pop).

@Shyue-- the monastery was there because I wanted to send missionaries to my neighbors (mainly Shaka) in order to convert them. I didn't realize that we had a trade route already and my religion spread when I was only a few turns off from building the monastery. I figure it will be good anyways, since for my save I would go for a religious economy. To be honest, I am amazed at how few saves went for an early religion. In my mind, that's a huge loss since you can make tons of gold in the holy city...

@Lansky-- that link you are posting is broken. Maybe you have a pop-up blocker that is preventing the pop-up window with the upload options from opening? Follow directions Carl Corey gave and tell us where you have issues and maybe we can troubleshoot with you?

 

[Gumbolt]

Gumbolt: I don't like where Mecca is. It blocks off the fish and the clams Although you probably couldn't see it before you settled, settling one off the coast like that seems a bad idea. You also need more workers - I'm not sure why you spent so many worker turns building those roads. You could have built farms etc. Your cities are great for commerce but you're going to have to settle a few production cities soon.

I had 3 workers. I normally do 1:1 early on. From what i can see no one else had more than that. I dont think my save had pottery or BW till 1525bc so thats the reason for a lot of road. it did help spread my religion to all my cities.

The capital wasnt greatly placed but I went for the extra commerce on the wine and the religion. I hadnt realised the coast would be so close either. Looking at starting screen does hint at ocean southwards.

I did like the southern city that some placed but looked far too inviting for me.

 

[Gumbolt]

I missed this. Sorry. I totally agree this is important but I had thought that Soirana was the only one with expensive techs. Too many saves to go through. Had I realized I might have voted differently but I'm not changing it now. Sorry again.

Its not important. My capital placing will condemn my save to the abyss anyway. I think many will get the oracle built anyway come the next round with Marble so close.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

As far as shadows go--its fine to post saves (so that we can all look in awe), as long as you make it clear that the save isn't eligible for votes. I request that anyone who plays at Immortal level (or has a clearly overly-superior save) usually 'shadow' rather than actually submit saves for votes (as overpowered saves early on = boring game with less learning opportunities). This means we can all thank Soirana for the example of awesomeness, but that we will NOT vote for the save, since s/he asked us not to.

If you request, I will do. No votes for my save please. I will still post my comments on saves .
@Shyuhe: isn't my little wb cute?

edit about marble city location: I find that on marble has more long term potential than one SE of it because it has more food... and the other cow can be used by another city.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

To be honest, I am amazed at how few saves went for an early religion. In my mind, that's a huge loss since you can make tons of gold in the holy city...

Yes, but it makes less religious tensions between the AIs. So the tech pace will likely be faster (more trades between them ), and there will be less AI- AI wars.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Dirtryparrot: You need more workers! Mecca should build another worker, not a madrassa. Unpastured pigs is a big nono. Especially since you're pasturing cows first. Plus a second worker will help you chop those forests around Mecca for some good early production. Your fogbusting is good, although archery + copper is a little redundant.

I thought that I had mentioned it in my report (must have forgotten), but the madrassa build was simply there for 1 turn to allow Mecca to grow to 4 and then the worker was going to be whipped. I played this out until 1000BC, ended up chopping the Oracle (took CoL) (thanks to tech trading) and have 3 workers. The problem was that I was just about to do a whole bunch of stuff the few turn after 1500BC (so I didn't get to put most of my plan into effect, but it worked). You're completely right about not having the pigs hooked up. That should not happen.

 

[shyuhe]

In view of what chromium said, don't vote for my save either.

 

[Abegweit]

In view of what chromium said, don't vote for my save either.

And mine too. Also withdraw my votes. FWIW, I play all levels from Monarch above. Monarch for fun. Diety for punishment. I am comfortable on Immortal but like Emperor best. Lazy, I suppose.

I will probably shadow the next round/

 

[Abegweit]

Also--I don't think there is anything wrong with defending with 3 warriors (with archers on the way) on a save where you have very amazing defensive terrain (mountains and peninsula). Not sure what the obsession with metals is, I would rather defend with archers (especially since we are protective) than place a lame city to get a metal on line more quickly (I'd rather just hold out for border pop).

You are quite right that there is nothing wrong with defending with warriors. They do quite fine until the barbs have axes (and, often, they never get them). Just figure out where they come and place a couple of units in the path. Replace the dead.

The problem I have is with the archers-on-the-way part. I hate archers. Like warriors, they can't actually attack the incoming hordes. So, like warriors, they can't prevent pillaging. Furthermore, it's a huge waste of research. The icing on the cake is that hunting is less than useless when you have nothing to camp.

 

[ChromiumL]

Shyue and Abegweit -- Thanks for withdrawing your saves, they are amazing, but like I said, they would probably make for a easy win game. It seems like over time we have realized that in the 'vote for best save' style secession game, the actual difficulty level is actually easier than it would otherwise be. So Emperor game is actually closer to monarch difficulty.


Also, I don't have any problem with letting people who shadow vote (unless they don't want to). They may be able to provide some insight into what is important to look for in a good save.

@Abegweit-- I always go for the easier levels too... so I guess I am lazy too I can also see what you mean about archers. I tend to fogbust more than I did in this save, and an archer can fogbust as well as an axeman. I can't even remember the last time I had a barb pillage something in a game... probably it was the last time I played with raging barbarians on .

 

[Lansky]

@Lansky-- that link you are posting is broken. Maybe you have a pop-up blocker that is preventing the pop-up window with the upload options from opening? Follow directions Carl Corey gave and tell us where you have issues and maybe we can troubleshoot with you?

I get the window and upload the file from my computer but I'm missing some very obvious step I'm guessing. I get my save under current attachments but it is not added to the post and if I copy the link it claims to be invalid. Messing around with it currently.

 

[Gumbolt]

Anyone else want to withdraw before I place any votes?

I actually didnt have a problem with Shuhe, soirana and others saves. If everyone starts shadowing there will be no one left to vote for. Also its interesting to see some different approaches. This save certainly offers that.

I am actually amazed the immortal cookbook doesnt get more players. So many seasoned players on here.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes, but it makes less religious tensions between the AIs. So the tech pace will likely be faster (more trades between them ), and there will be less AI- AI wars.

This is a double edged sword for me.


On the one front getting oracle COl slingshot is not difficult on emperor. So getting a religion is not always difficult with a bit of planning. Even without marble its an easy chop.

The advantage of the bud/hindu religion is the holy city in your capital. Mix this with SH/Oracle/madrassa and you have a holy shrine quite early. Also a strong cultural capital.

Religious tension will only exist if another Ai on your land mass founds another religion. Even if this does happen theres nothing to stop you adopting it and spreading yours by the back door for an AP steal.

The problems start when you have 2 religious pacts and you have to pick a side or just have no religion. Downside of no religion is -ve diplo points if you refuse an Ai religion.

 

[ChromiumL]

I actually didnt have a problem with Shuhe, soirana and others saves. If everyone starts shadowing there will be no one left to vote for. Also its interesting to see some different approaches. This save certainly offers that.

I am always glad to see different approaches--but I am concerned that if a save is too strong (especially in the first round) it makes the game itself less interesting. I doubt people want to play in a game that is an obvious win. I am totally open to different suggestions if anyone has one--but so far the best option I can think of is to have people voluntarily remove themselves from the vote. I just hope that doesn't prevent higher level players from occasionally stopping by to show their skills!

 

[shyuhe]

I am actually amazed the immortal cookbook doesnt get more players. So many seasoned players on here.

I tend to finish my immortal games in one go so the cookbook format doesn't work so well for me. You know, that one more turn thingie...

As for this game, I just wanted to play around with an early religion - I rarely go for them in my offline games. But Saladin's madarassa makes it really easy to get a GP for an early shrine, which can be immensely powerful - especially if your holy city is your capital.

@Chromium: This map is quite an interesting one. There's lots of land to expand into, but some top notch warmongers on the starting continent (I don't think this is spoiler at this point since you can see the other AI on the various saves). I think the key will be to get them to dogpile on somebody other than yourself (hint hint, MM). Although the difficulty is that all can declare at pleased (including MM!).

 

[Lansky]

I think the key will be to get them to dogpile on somebody other than yourself (hint hint, MM). Although the difficulty is that all can declare at pleased (including MM!).

Kill Shaka and use religion/civics to get Gilga to friendly in no time. Dog pile Ghengis or Mansa. I know "easier said then done" but that is how I view it at least. Gilga usually stays in HR for a long long time if really needed.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I am actually amazed the immortal cookbook doesnt get more players. So many seasoned players on here.

Hehe, the problem is that sometimes you don't have time when the thread starts... but I am actually waiting for the next installment (+ I am not too fond of DG, I feel he lacks sinergies)... This game have a really nice map with an unusual leader that opens up plenty of possibilities (as we saw with the various openning), I think that's why so many players subscribed this thread ...

Cheers

 

[RJM]

I didn't find it easy to make my choice - so many saves, then a lot of the good ones withdrawn. My analysis and votes are a bit random, but for the record, this is how I view the saves.

Assassin no marble, very weak def
Champ82 marble, no copper, only 2 cities (but settler in place), 10 exp unit
Chrom marble not connected, no copper, weak def
DirtyParrot no marble, archers, only 2 cities
GSPchamp good expansion, chariot
Gumbolt marble, no slavery, no copper, weak def
hel possible 10 exp unit, marble not connected, weak def
Ipex no copper, only 2 cities
King Morgan no slavery, no copper, no marble, could whip oracle, no trade routes
Lansky marble, only 2 cities, no copper
Leventis marble, axeman
mklh no marble, no slavery, pity about the barb archer
Perplexity good city expansion, no copper, marble not connected
Timmy827 marble, good expansion, no copper, archer, no slavery

And the votes:
#1 Lansky
#2 Timmy827
#3 Chrom

RJM

 

[ChromiumL]

So far we only have 3ish people who have voted... come on people! Vote! We will allow one more day for voting.

 

[Gumbolt]

Few Notes.

Timmy827 3 cities, 3 workers, 1 settler, 19bpt, 1 gold online. Not sure on early expansion choices citiy wise. 2nd Gold seemed obvious.

Leventis - 3 cities, 3 workers, madrass and 3 axes. 13bpt.

Assasin - Bud Religion, Shenge, 3 cities, 2 workers, 1 warrior and 1 gold online. 16 bpt. Weak defence and lack of workers is a worry.

MKLH 3 workers, 3 cities, 1 axe, 1 pesky barb, Sh, Madrass and Great Scientist in 12 turns. 20 BPT.

Hele - 3 cities, 2 workers, alphabet in 9 turns, 18 bpt.

RJM - 3 cities, 1 worker, 2 axe, gold/copper and a madrassa. 24BPT

King Morgan 3 city 1 worker, oracle soon, 1 gold online, possible feud slingshot. 16BPT

Champ 82 2 cities, 2 workers, 3 archers, oracle 4 turns. writing in 4 turns too. Puzzled by 3rd settler so far out. No copper so archers will be defending while barbs pillage. 16 BPT

D Parrot 1 worker 1 settler 4 archers and 2 granaries. 23 BPT

Ras - 3 workers, alphabet in 5 turns, 3 cities, 2 archers

Perplex 4 cities 2 workers, good cap with Madrass. No copper is a big minus as 4 cities already built.

Chrom - 2 gold 3 cities, Bud religion, Oracle 7t, no copper for 10-15 turns and weak defences.

Lansky - COL and Alphabet already, 2 cities and 2 workers Reasonable tech rate but slow growth and mongols look strong.

GSchamp - 3 cities. 3 barb archers near your 2nd city. You do have 2 chariots. You will need them!! If you make it through a rush on shaka is possible. Just worried your cities are 6-15 tiles from capital.

Might have missed one or three immortal players.

Hmmm more notes to follow.

1. king morgan. Purely to try a feud slingshot with oracle. (3pts)
2. MKLH - Yes the barb archer is annoying but GS approach will help game play. Philosphy bulb? (2pts)
3. lansky Strong tech wise but weak on expansion. if mongols are strong then this could be a good challenge. (1pt)

Overall voting was tough but I have gone for interesting.