[BTS] Emperor help with Tokugawa

[elmurcis]

Good point Sampsa: in this situation with 3 "food heavy" tiles city could grow well into size 4 before start settler and do 2-pop settler whip to be at size 3 again after finish settler (using "food overflow") with exact overflow to finish warrior turn after. That would give 1 turn unhappiness at size 3 (no military police + whip anger) but would make it full power (3 food tiles) useful again.
What was food bar size at Normal speed (haven't played like... years )? On Mara its 60+pop*6, so on Normal its 20+pop*2? So size 3 is 26 and size 4 is 28 (and 24 at size 2)? Now (in picture) its 22 food in bar, if work all food, it would have +12?! food surplus (+10?! at size 4 - unhappy citizens eats food but don't make other trouble like in real world ), so after T1 it is 4 to fill up and 6 food into size 4 (whip anger left - 4T), T2 its 14, T3 - 24 (enough to grow from 2 to 3 during whip from size 4), so can start settler now and use 2 turns of whip anger to already start settler and don't waste "idle" happy turns
(if I made mistake with math - sorry )

 

[Lain]

Warrior in Osaka is ok. It's generally good to get that Granary up as soon as possible though. Using chops and all.

Hook up Copper, sure. One axeman or so can't hurt and you can still build warriors if you avoid hunting.

Biggest problem I see in the screenshots... Kyoto should start on a settler right now. And work those good food tiles. They have to be worked all the time, everything else would be a huge waste. Basically you start on the settler now, wait until you have at least 40/100 hammers in him. Then you put something else in the queue, grow to size 4 and whip the settler immediately. This way you won't have unhappiness at all while working the great tiles at the same time.

Regarding sky points, I guess they have turned up their EP slider. Nothing to worry about.

 

[Tonny]

For me, the most important thing behind good micro is "work your best tiles". You could slow build worker/settler at size 3 or 4 with a military police, or you could just grow into unhappiness intending to whip. Working poor tiles is not the solution you should be looking for.

Good point Sampsa: in this situation with 3 "food heavy" tiles city could grow well into size 4 before start settler and do 2-pop settler whip to be at size 3 again after finish settler (using "food overflow") with exact overflow to finish warrior turn after. That would give 1 turn unhappiness at size 3 (no military police + whip anger) but would make it full power (3 food tiles) useful again.

Biggest problem I see in the screenshots... Kyoto should start on a settler right now. And work those good food tiles. They have to be worked all the time, everything else would be a huge waste. Basically you start on the settler now, wait until you have at least 40/100 hammers in him. Then you put something else in the queue, grow to size 4 and whip the settler immediately. This way you won't have unhappiness at all while working the great tiles at the same time.

Took all advices and replayed a bit to use the best tiles all the time.

Spoiler Kyoto t46 size 4 :

This is funny...
When I build the settler the screen shows +12 and when I build the warrior the screen shows only +10.
Has anyone noticed this before?

Meanwhile I lost a warrior to a lion at 1,0% odds. That's what you can call bad luck .
Hammurabi is now connected for trade routes. Immediately I gifted fish.

Gameplan:
Kyoto
- build warrior 2 turns, then switch to settler and 2 pop whip. Overflow into warrior. settler ready t49 and warrior ready t50.
Osaka
- nothing special... will grow to size 2 in 2 turns and warrior ready t50.
Workers
- Osaka: Hooking up copper and chop 1 forest (granary or axeman, depending on barb activity).
- Kyoto: Chop 1 forest (granary or wb) I prefer wb for clam, because 3rd city will take 1 corn. Then start roading to the new city. Have to time it right so chop is ready after warrior is built. (partially roading)

I will delay settling the 3rd city after I get writing (t54).

 

[Windsor]

This is funny...
When I build the settler the screen shows +12 and when I build the warrior the screen shows only +10.
Has anyone noticed this before?

Angry citizens don't consume food when building a settler.

 

[sampsa]

I will delay settling the 3rd city after I get writing (t54).

Delaying your 3rd city is often a mistake, and I don't see why this isn't the case here, too. What difference does writing make to settling it? You have no foreign trade routes anyway, and domestic you'll have without writing if the city is connected. Settling sooner wins and , while probably loses some if unconnected. At this point 1>1>1 for sure and the sooner your city starts growing the sooner you can work those cottages in order to make some .

City 3 needs quite a lot of worker turns (road, chops, cottages), hence I think you need 3rd worker asap. I'm not sure if netting the clams is urgent, I'd rather try to open foreign trade routes by sending out an exploring work boat (or if you know Ham is directly to the south, a warrior will do). Sailing would be my preferred next tech for that reason. I don't think there's a huge rush to get an axe out, rather get out a worker working corn+copper with the help of one chop.

Granaries don't seem that urgent here (no extra for whips), so I'd rather just slowbuild settlers/workers with the help of chops. For me the first building in capital is definitely a library in this case.

 

[Tonny]

Spoiler :

Long post ahead

Angry citizens don't consume food when building a settler.

I also noticed they don't consume food when building a worker.

Turn 55 1800BC
Writing came 1 turn later than expected. Osaka grew to size 2 making city maintenance 3/turn instead of 2/turn. Not a big problem.
I immediately OB with Washington and Hammurabi. Both of them are happy enough with each other (+3 first impression). Furthermore no religions here. This continent could have a lovefest.

Spoiler Kyoto :

I put 1 chop into the WB and it will be finished next turn. Next will be a Library for a few turns until I grow to size 6. At size 6 (t58) I will 3 pop whip the Library. Next will be Workers and Settlers remaining at size 3 for a while.

Spoiler Osaka :

Here I plan to 2 pop whip the Granary on t57. Overflow goes into a Library on t58. Add a chop on t59 building the Axeman. On t60 the "delayed" chop overflow goes into the Library and on t61 it will be 1 pop whipped. After that I will grow the city to size 4 building Warriors/Axemen. At size 4 it will have 2 scientists.

Spoiler The scouted area :

On t56 spot 3 will be settled and will claim the corn from Kyoto. Kyoto will then be working Corn, Fish and Clam.
South I marked "fishcity" as a good candidate for a 4th city. This will stop Washington settling there. A few more roads into his lands and we're connected.
Spots 4, 5 and 6 are likely spots for more cities. 5 first, 4 second and 6 to be decided.
First build for spot 3 is a Warrior, switching sometimes to put chops into a Library. At size 4 or 5 a 2 pop whip is needed to finish the Library.
Spot 5 can work the Corn and 2 scientists at size 3. 2 chops and a whip needed.
Spot 4 can easily grow to size 4 and can become a production city.
Spot 6 has to wait for AH and Monarchy to give me any use.

Now I need to decide what to tech next. The screenshots say AH, but I won't go for that. I'm thinking about Sailing for traderoutes and a Lighthouse in Kyoto and "fishcity".

Just thinking out loud now:
I see that spot 3 could become a nice BureauCap having 9 riverside grasslands, 6 normal grasslands, 3 grassland hills, 1 Corn and 1 Ivory. Decent production and a lot of commerce. No need to decide now...

 

[Tonny]

@sampsa
I can see your point about the delay. I was writing my previous post while you posted. I will wait to play more turns and see what others have to say too about my play.
I can always replay a few turns.

 

[sampsa]

Why do you want a library in corn+copper? Like I said in my last post, I'm not sure if even granary there does much good because it's hard to whip with such a low -cap. Very early granary+library combination is often counter-productive, because library means running scientists and granary means growing/whipping a lot and you can't do both at the same time. Overflow into worker, whip at size 4 and build warriors/axes while in growth mode?

What you really want in the early game is some units, workers and settlers. Here northern floodplain area looks worth settling asap.

Also, you really should have a military police (=warrior) in capital. It's not bad to grow into unhappiness intending to whip, but your city is being unhappy when you could fix that with the cost of 15.

Do not despair, the early game demanding in it's own way but once you start to get it right the reward is huge.

 

[Tonny]

After 8 months of having this game kept in the freezer I decided to give it another go from scratch.
Currently at turn 54.
Researched Agri-BW-Pottery-Writing.
3 Cities with 3 workers and building 2 more.
Military is at 4 warriors, 2 axemen and building 1 warrior.

Plz take a look at my savegame and give advice. I'm at a loss what to tech next for example.

Thanks a lot!

 

[sampsa]

2 axemen is enough to cover you from barbs if you use them wisely. You don't need to fogbust the whole nearby area. 5 workers for 3 cities is a lot, but at least you can chop settlers with them. I guess fish-city next (also has phant for ), then floodplain area. Hunting-AH?

Edit: since you went for writing (pretty sure hunt-AH-wri was better), I guess you should build a library soon in capital. Maybe settler before that though.

Edit2: Oh I see Lain advocated the tech path you chose. Library in cap asap must be the point. Slider at 0% while building it.

 

[Tonny]

I honestly don't see the point in teching Hunting. The ivory spot at "fishcity" can't be improved before IW since it's on jungle. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Northwest is another spot, but it needs an awkward city to claim that tile. I don't like that option either.
Teching AH directly makes more sense in my opinion. And it still keeps building warriors a possibility.

I was actually thinking about teching Math for Currency and using it to trade with the AI. But teching AH makes settling the northern Pig/Wine spot earlier easier. And maybe horses somewhere too.

My general plan for my cities:
Kyoto: Finish worker, next is library, then settler or worker.
Osaka: Finish worker, next is library for scientists, then settler or worker.
Tokyo: cottage the surroundings and growing to size 4 while finishing warrior. Then at size 4 chop out a settler.

Settling new cities:
Fishcity first
Spot A1 or A2 second to block Washington.
After that I need to decide later. Have to scout the northern region and the westcoast more.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[rah]

I honestly don't see the point in teching Hunting. The ivory spot at "fishcity" can't be improved before IW since it's on jungle. (correct me if I'm wrong)

You can build a camp even though it's on a jungle. Not a great square but if you really need the happiness or the elephants.

 

[Tonny]

Thanks @rah

Going for hunting-ah now makes sense as @sampsa suggests. I think I will follow that route now.

 

[sampsa]

Blocking Washington is IMO simply moot. Just let him settle that decent spot with food and take it via war later. I don't want to repeat the same things over and over again (it's your game anyway) but that floodplain area is very nice (even without extra food-resources) and should be settled asap and cottaged.

So now I'd just let Washington do his thing and focus on settling peacefully towards north, after settling fish city (mostly for the +1 ).

 

[Tonny]

Update t60:

On my way to scout the northern and western area.
Kyoto has library ready next turn
Osaka has library ready in 2 turns.
Research is set for Hunting.

Spoiler map :

Following @sampsa advice I won't go for the corn/copper city and only settle the fishcity and cites up north near/on the floodplains.

 

[sampsa]

You are certainly doing fine, but you are not using your 5(!) workers efficiently. You really really should be chopping stuff (=mostly settlers) asap with them. Mines in capital seem moot since you can't both work them and run scientists (which is the main point of building a library).

Chop out a settler from cap/Osaka and have capital build a work boat for the fish city.

 

[Tonny]

Played a short turnset... now at turn 68 1280BC
teched hunting-ah

Spoiler surroundings :

Settler in Kyoto will be ready next turn and goes for the fishcity site. Next city will be founded on turn 71. Next build in Kyoto is wb. The last 2 forests are being chopped.
Osaka is running 2 scientists and building a settler with the aid of chops.
Tokyo is working 1 corn and 3 riverside cottages. Building a settler and putting 1 chop into it.

Currently thinking about what to tech and do next.

 

[sampsa]

Some comments:

- your axes are way too far. Their duty is to protect you, not to scout what there is in a rather irrelevant (for now) corner of the map
- shame that you got hunting before the warrior was finished in Tokyo, as you could have used them 20 in a better way. That spear will be useful later, so no worries
- you haven't focused on one AI. Right now you would like to see what one of them is researching. No biggie, just something to keep in mind for future. My choice would have been on Hams, as Wash will be your first victim
- apart from the things I already pointed out (too many workers, some sub-optimal choices with them, slow with 4th and 5th city) things are looking great

For the next tech, I think math-construction-HBR makes a lot of sense if you want to elepult. If you don't feel very comfortable with that strategy, peaceful expansion and alpha is certainly OK. Monarchy would be very useful, but I'd try to get it via trade.

 

[Tonny]

your axes are way too far. Their duty is to protect you, not to scout what there is in a rather irrelevant (for now) corner of the map

Got it. Curiosity could have killed the the cat here. I took a gamble thinking that Osaka could whip an Axe easily.

shame that you got hunting before the warrior was finished in Tokyo, as you could have used them 20 in a better way. That spear will be useful later, so no worries

I was thinking about delaying hunting and getting a warrior or 2 in Tokyo. Had to make a choice and I went for the spearman anyway to help me in the future. Furthermore the timing in Tokyo was that spearman was ready on the same turn when Tokyo grew to size 4.

you haven't focused on one AI. Right now you would like to see what one of them is researching. No biggie, just something to keep in mind for future. My choice would have been on Hams, as Wash will be your first victim

When Mansa is in the game I always put my EP on him the first turn I meet him. Wasn't thinking here about that. Will correct that.

apart from the things I already pointed out (too many workers, some sub-optimal choices with them, slow with 4th and 5th city) things are looking great

I will keep the worker/city ratio in mind for the next game and will use them better then.
Slower settling is all about my fear that my economy will crash. At least I'm building 3 settlers atm.

For the next tech, I think math-construction-HBR makes a lot of sense if you want to elepult.

I like this idea. Earliesh warfare to learn for me. And now I know where to put my 5th city.

Thanks for your help!!!

 

[Tonny]

My ideas for the next cities and techs.

Spoiler surroundings :

First city will be the fishcity and can be settled on turn 71. Cap Kyoto will build a wb for the fish over there.
Second city 1N of the horses and can be settled on turn 73. Will build granary, barracks and units.
Third city has 2 options:
1. Spot 2 to claim pig, wine and one fp. Initial goal is building units over there.
2. Spot 3 to claim the gold and fp's. Goal is to build library there and cottage the crap out of its bfc.

Teching towards Math, Construction and HBR for an Elepult rush on Washington.

I honestly don't know what to do with my first GS.
It could build an academy in Tokyo (future bureaucap?) to make the cottages more worthwile.
Or it could bulb techs for me. For now it's Alphabet after Math. Doesn't seem very helpful.
Golden Age?... No...

Advice (and critique) is much appreciated!!!