[BTS] Emperor help with Tokugawa

[Tonny]

Hello everyone,

The goal of this thread is to improve my game on early micromanagement and empire building. For this I choose Tokugawa to play with as he has no traits that affect the infrastructure of my empire.
The settings of the game are: Standard continents map on normal speed with a temperate climate and standard sea level. I've turned huts and events off to make this game as natural as it possibly can be. There will be 6 random AI's and barbarians.
I play with Buffy 3.19.004b.

Here's the start:

Spoiler turn zero :

Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
Three corn to start with and two seafood.

Already this poses the question what to do first when/if I (or might I say we) will settle in place. Worker or workboat first will give an interesting discussion.
I propose to move the warrior SW to reveal the inlands for a possible other spot to settle on turn 1. With no river or another food resource revealed I think I will SIP.

Thanks a lot in advance and enjoy this game if you like to tag along.

Here's the save:

Spoiler :

Tokugawa BC-4000 t0.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Pedro78]

To be honest, a coastal start isn't ideal to learn the game mechanics. It makes everything more complicated. Many people here will be glad to help you, but playing a "standard" game would make it so much easier for everyone to give constructive advice

 

[dutchfire]

Well, with this amount of corn you can mostly ignore the water in the beginning. I would definitely go for worker first, farm the corn and then chop some workboats (and workers/settlers) later

 

[lymond]

Based on what I've seen of Tonny's HOF games, I imagine he has a basic grasp of game mechanics, so this is more for fine tuning to really hit the highest levels.

That is some serious food. Two things come to mind here when I see this: a) how to share all that food b) with the warrior position, would he reveal something to the W that would warrant a move away from the coast (i generally always look for better inland options). But for now, we would assume that we'd settle in place on at least on the coast thereabouts.

One thing is clear..there is only two spots that will grab the fish. Moving inland doesn't impact that. SIP is fine, but 1S I find interesting as it opens the other corn for a nearby city either inland or coastal. Obviously, there is way too much food here for one city for a long time, so I would look to maximize how it is used.

Worker first obvious here with corns and all that forest to chop. Heck you really don't need wbs for some time.

 

[Tonny]

@Pedro78 I intentionally chose this start to stay away from a standard possible bureau cap. Future capital switching is one of the things I like to learn. Furthermore, as mentioned everywhere, food is king. On top of that, with all the forests, early chopping and whipping is also one of the aspects of the game I like to perfect.
@dutchfire and @lymond
Worker first was my idea also. Too much corn to ignore. Probably this isn't a start that makes the wb/worker first discussion an interesting one.
@lymond You mention my hof-play. The only entries I've done so far were straightforward plays. Low level timegame, low level APgame (t61 victory) and an immortal occ spacegame (doesn't involve higher level city placement). Especially when and how many cities. And all of them were with barbs off.

Regarding settling:
I'm not sure, but I believe there is jungle south. A helper city down there won't be rewarding until IW. Settling 1S of my current position thus makes sense as it makes settling near the northern corn easier.

Early tech path:
Agriculture, mining, BW seems to me the best way.

 

[Pedro78]

Yup definitely don't need fishing until you have to share all these corns with other cities.

Even after IW, settling the Jungle is usually not advisable, as it demands a huge amount of worker turns. Exceptions do apply of course.

Have you read the Civ illustrated guides? A lot of good advice in them, even for deity players.

 

[Pangaea]

You mention my hof-play. .... And all of them were with barbs off.

That's pretty much the gold standard for HoF play -- which is a rather apt term

 

[elmurcis]

Huh, now this is where I see WB (for Fish, building with 1F2H tile)->Worker->warriors to size 4 (Fish+3Corns)->Settler (chops/whips - no idea about timing on normal speed thoug) opening to be nice too But just my 5 cents from "coastal Heavy player"

 

[Tonny]

@Pedro78 I see that I wasn't clear enough about settling jungle cities. I didn't intend to settle any and let the AI do the hard work.
I've read the articles (will keep reading them over and over again) and some more about gambits, like the oracle-CoL/CS slingshot and beelining Liberalism and many more.

@Pangaea Yup, I stated the obvious.. lol

@elmurcis I did a quick test regarding wb or worker first. For this test I SIP.
Wb first:
The capital will reach size 4 on t31 working fish, farmed wet corn and the 2 dry corns (not farmed). Southern corn will be farmed on t32, warrior ready on t32 and, just researching agri-mining-bw, bw ready on t32.
Worker first:
The capital will reach size 4 on t27 working the 2 southern corns already farmed, northern corn (farmed on t30) and any other tile (preferably the lake or clam for growth and commerce). Bw ready on t33.
Pick your play...

 

[SnipedSoul]

Worker first. 3 farmed corns will help you spam a lot of settlers and workers. Work boats can come later.

I think this map could be pretty crazy if you have a long coastline. Chop out The Great Lighthouse and spam settlers from the capital with all that food. Don't forget to grab 4 separate island cities for 2 commerce domestic trade routes! If you find another good settler pump, then turn the capital into an insane GP farm.

 

[Tonny]

Update up to t31:
I've decided to settle 1S of the settler's position since the warrior revealed nothing but plains to the west and it makes settling a northern helper city easier.
Contrary to most of the suggestions I've decided to start a workboat first and worker second. Workboat was ready on t11 and the worker on t22. Currently I'm building a warrior.

Here's an overview of the scouted lands:

Spoiler :

A lot more food resources (2 more corn and 2 pigs) and some happy resources (ivory + 2 wine). In the near future health won't be a problem with fish, corn and clam. Possibly pigs too if I decide to tech AH.

On turn 7 Washington (exp/cha) came from the south and hammurabi (agg/org) also came from the south on t8. This probably means that we are with 3 civs on this continent and the other continent houses 4 civs. Furhtermore I will likely have the whole northern half to myself to expand. This poses the problem of effective fogbusting and city placement.
Here are some first questions:
1. How does fogbusting really work? On an area of 3x3 or 5x5? How far outside the cultural borders is fogbusting effective?
2. Where will I need to settle my second city? I was thinking about 1E of the pig and thus sharing 3 tiles with the capital.

Regarding early religions:
Hinduism is founded on t10 and Buddhism on t15. Both likely on the other continent.

Spoiler Kyoto at size 4 :

If I work the clam or lake I will get BW next turn and the warrior in 2 turns.
If I work the last corn both BW and warrior ready in 2 turns.
If I work the forested grassland hill I will get BW in 2 turns and the warrior next turn.
I prefer working either the lake or clam. Any thoughts?

Regarding worker moves:
3. Just a simple question, what next?
I could chop the hill 1N of the capital first to put 20h in a settler and 3 pop whip it. Then I could start farming the corn for my second city. This means no roads yet to connect the 2 cities.

Kyoto:
build order: finish warrior - warrior (partial) - at size 6 settler (1 chop + 3 pop whip) - worker (overflow)(partial) - warrior growing to size 4 - at size 4 worker (2 pop whip) - ???
4. Is the suggested build order the most effective play?

In conclusion one final thought regarding the techpath:
Since I've discovered pigs and ivory I opt for Hunting-AH-Writing and Mysticism for monuments. My 3rd city then will be settled between the corn and ivory expanding to the east. My 4th city will be on the eastcoast to claim both corn and pigs.
5. Should I go this path or go Pottery-Writing for Granaries and Cottages? And where to put Sailing and Masonry (if even) for the GLH?

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[Tonny]

I think I found an answer to my first question by reading some old posts.

The rules:
1. In an area of 5x5 of any unit no barb will spawn.
2. In the visibility range of any unit no barb city will spawn.
3. In the visibility range of my cultural borders no barb or barb city will spawn.

Am I correct?

 

[Pangaea]

Yes, I believe so. Just be aware that -- and this is kind of implied in the above 'rules' -- a barb city can spawn within a spawnbuster's 5x5 area, if the unit doesn't have visibility to all tiles. I've seen it happen, and it can be quite frustrating.

 

[Tonny]

I've played a few more turns.

Spoiler :

Nearby copper!

Soon I will post a detailed update.

 

[Tonny]

Update!

I'm currently at turn 39 (2440BC) and whipped my settler for 3 pop.

Spoiler :

I went for Hunting and AH, because I like to use the pigs and the ivory for commerce.
My first choice for settling is spot 2a. The city then can grow fast with corn and pigs. Furthermore copper can be used.
Spot 2b also looks interesting, but only the pigs aren't in the first ring. Then I might go for GLH or Colossus.
Your thoughts?
Spot 3 looks like a nice 3rd city.
I haven't decided yet about spots 4a and 4b. It depends on what will be revealed north close to the wine.

You can see that I have a lot of overflow from the whip. Many choices here...
1. Worker (12F+37H), done in 2 turns
2. Settler (12F+37H)
3. Workboat (37H), instantly ready
4. Barracks (74H), instantly ready
What would you advise?

 

[Tonny]

Given the amount of replies I think I will start a new map with less food and more suitable for asking advice.
I will keep this game for future play if anyone still likes to comment.
Tonight the new one will be up and running.
Maybe pangaea and an inland start?

 

[Lain]

Few thoughts regarding this game: 2a seems good, but I wouldn't have gone Hunting -> AH. Corn+Copper is more than enough. The city could be working copper+corn+2 scientists at size 4 and still be productive. Absolutely amazing city. So if you want to build a wonder, 2b is the way to go to leverage GLH. The pigs are overkill. Food is the least of your problems in this map. Bottleneck will be commerce. So Pottery and a quick Writing would have been my pick. Worker first, Agriculture -> Mining -> BW -> Pottery -> Writing. Like this. And the first boat would have got the clams instead of the fish in my game (commerce). And if this was Fractal, my second boat would have gone exploring. Not sure if it's worth it on Continents, but could be.

3rd city would go SW of the capital, on that jungle river taking a corn from the capital. I see 4 river tiles that can be cottaged straight away even before having to clear any jungle. That's good enough. Upon reaching writing I would push out, grab that double-food spot (4a) and the ivory (not in first ring though, you want some food). That would be 5 excellent cities.

The ivory is good, but shouldn't be settled before Writing is in sight because it's just a burden on the economy for now. Though I don't know, Emperor maintenance might not be that brutal. Still, that city isn't doing anything for you until later. The +1 happy cap is good, but not crucial this early.

Edit: Overflow should mostly go into Workers/Settlers, the other stuff can be built while growing. So in your case, probably a worker because you aren't ready for a new city yet.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, not sure you need to start a new game. I think the forum can just fluctuate in regards to the attention you may receive. Sorry you've been neglected

I agree fully with Lain. While you can get away with the tech paths you chose on Emperor, if your goal is to move up levels, you have to start really focusing your tech paths better. Pigs is a great tile ..no doubt. But as Lain said, food is not at a premium here. 2a or 2b can share that corn that cap does not need for a long time anyway due to all that food. So pigs are not an urgency. And you teched Hunt and AH, so that is many turns of teching something that is really not pressing. You have food and you have your strat resource...really all you need for now. Pot>Writing to get some commerce and get up a library makes more sense.

Yep, and cap can share food with another city to the W, that can do some cottages.

Not sure if this map screams GLH, so 2a may be fine. Either spot is good. I probably would have completed road to that spot while settler was finishing for insta-trade route.

Yep, finish worker with that OF. I almost always do that on my first settler whip, as well as subsequent. Those workers will have a lot to do here with improving and chops.

You might want to backtrack and replay before you started Hunting, and go Pot>Writing.

Lot's of land to the N which could be a problem for barbs, so you want some busters out. You should not have a warrior in Kyoto right now..he needs to be out busting.

 

[Tonny]

@Lain and @lymond

I took both of your advices and started to replay after discovering BW (turn 32).
- New tech path is Pottery-Writing.
- I will settle 2a for Corn-Copper and 2 scientists at size 4.
- 3rd city will go SW of Kyoto for the 4 river cottage spots and "borrowing" Corn. (I totally missed that spot... lol)
- Overflow after Settler is going into Worker.

I now see a few flaws in my games, a quick summary (probably forgetting about a lot more):
- Whenever I see a resource tile I want to improve that as quickly as possible without even considering if it has a benefit short term. Especially when cities can't even grow into them.
- With the huge amount of food on this map I didn't take into account that commerce is the bottleneck early stage. I only focused on whipping. Therefore I was thinking about AH for the Pigs and Hunting for Ivory for the happy cap.
- I must learn to make cities beneficial at low sizes. Mostly I'm thinking about future uses of those spots neglecting the early stages of the game.
- Fogbusting... On lower levels I wanted barbs to spawn because of the easy XP. I have to get that out of my system.

Empire update:

Spoiler :

All the way to the south I see a nice spot for another city. Fish + Ivory.
Up north there are floodplains! Another nice spot!
And more Pigs!
This map is generous!

I guess building granaries isn't needed very soon. Libraries are urgent for the scientists.
Now a few questions:
- Is warrior first in Osaka good? I started it for fogbusting.
- Should I build a road on Copper soon for Axeman or delay it and build only warriors as fogbusters. Or does it depend on when barb archers spawn.
- When and how do I plan a settler in Kyoto?

Here's something that I don't understand.

Spoiler espionage screen :

Both of them are putting 7 ept on me!!! What's up with that?

Before I forget... Thanks Lain and lymond!!!

 

[sampsa]

For me, the most important thing behind good micro is "work your best tiles". You could slow build worker/settler at size 3 or 4 with a military police, or you could just grow into unhappiness intending to whip. Working poor tiles is not the solution you should be looking for.