End of Empires - N3S III

[Masada]

2/2 of the resident Aitahologists disagree.

 

[Hightower]

2/2 of the resident Aitahologists disagree.

You're a newcomer to Eastern Aitahism. Why do you have more say than NK?

 

[Masada]

I was the co-creator of Eastern Aitahism dude.

 

[Hightower]

I was the co-creator of Eastern Aitahism dude.

You let it spin off and are now trying to force it onto a different path by switching who you represent when it's had eons of development. But this is also not an argument worth having.

 

[Luckymoose]

You let it spin off and are now trying to force it onto a different path by switching who you represent when it's had eons of development. But this is also not an argument worth having.

That is not really true to the history of Aitahism. We are one.

 

[North King]

Strictly speaking, the Cult of the Goddess does borrow a lot from Maninism. But Masada is largely correct in that this doesn't really mean it's fundamentally different from Orthodox Aitahism; after all, even the Orthodox Aitahists have numerous doctrinal differences. The common thread is essentially the creed laid out in update twenty one:

We believe in the Ancestors, those who came before and who created the world;
We believe that the Ancestors have turned from us because of the error we made;
We believe that an ancestor, Aya'se, came down to lead us into salvation;
We believe that he failed, but left us his beloved daughter, Aitah;
We believe that Aitah is of the Ancestors and Us;
We believe that she will lead us to salvation and correct our errors;
We believe that she has died, been born again, and will come again;
We believe that her rebirth is presaged by signs which are known;
This is what believe and this is what is true.

All of which doesn't exclude the Cult of the Goddess. The only really problematic thing in there is the reference to Aya'se, who isn't as popular a figure among Eastern Aitahists, but most people generally accept it anyway. There's still a ton of room for leeway, including all of the Maninist elements of the Cult -- the Path is usually equated with the salvation Aitah is leading us towards, and no one really bats an eyelash.

Really, if I would point to anything as a potentially damaging schism in Aitahism, it would be the rejection of Kintyra by Orthodox Aitahists and the subsequent light blue color appearing on the map (). But even that's not very straightforward, because the Cult of the Goddess generally doesn't regard her quite as unfavorably as the theologians in Caroha do...

Though, yes, Masada, you could be a little nicer about misunderstandings related to your mildly confusing religion.

Oh, and for the curious, the update's going smoothly today. Should be done tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Terrance888]

Noooooo!

I mean,

Yessssss!

 

[Thlayli]

thus the word "almost" in my post.

Just to clarify though, my line of thought goes along the lines that that the Vithanana have now been separated from their core homelands, and so unlike say the Caliphate its very much a tiny isolated group in the midst of a vast and ancient culture. This is a natural situation where cultural assimilation is likely. As to your point on the Dulama religion, you are of course right that it was ditched by the old Empire, but the fact still remains that the part of the Empire that the Vithana conquered happens to be the greater whole of the part where the old religion was kept. Also, I must note Machaianism is present (along with Iralliam and Aitahism, although these two are, like Ardavan, tiny minorities) and strong in the Vithanana, and connected to a powerful heartland, if not Dulama religion there is a good chance they could end up following that faith.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the fall of the Dulama Empire could actually be a force for renewal for the traditional Dulama religion, since the blame for the diminution of Empire could fall on its rejection of the Dulama faith. At the same time the traditional Dulama religion could also serve as a powerful legitimising force for the new overlords, doubly so if the occasion strengthens the Dulama faith, which could encourage a similar phenomenon as we saw in the Kothari Exatai.

Or perhaps, the Vithanama will not callously abandon Taleldil the God of Man, who offers humanity the only hope of freedom from traitorous spirits wearing the masks of gods, seducing them with false promises of light before eating their very souls in the afterlife.

Perhaps instead this small group of worthy men will spread the hope of Ardavan to their newfound subjects, lead by Avralkha their High Prince, who was raised in the righteous ways, and in doing so, save them from a horrible fate.

 

[Masada]

I might write something tonight discussing this train-wreck in more detail.

You let it spin off and are now trying to force it onto a different path by switching who you represent when it's had eons of development. But this is also not an argument worth having.

I don't appreciate being accused of cheating. And as NK has been noted, I actually know what I'm talking about. To wit, it is fundamental tenet of the faith that there is no schism. Literally, the only shared piece of prayer we Aitahists have talks about this very issue: There is only one Aitah. There are many Aitahs.

 

[North King]

Not to say that there won't be potential schisms in the future, if someone decides to take a more hardline view.

 

[Luckymoose]

Not to say that there won't be potential schisms in the future, if someone decides to take a more hardline view.

Hardline views are the work of men, not Her. Aitahs are soft and accepting.

so soft...

Ahem.

 

[Jehoshua]

Or perhaps, the Vithanama will not callously abandon Taleldil the God of Man...

Perhaps instead this small group of worthy men will spread the hope of Ardavan to their newfound subjects...

Rather, they could try. Proceeding to be torn to shreds by a hostile populace. I would guess they would fare rather less well than the Dulama Empite did when they faced religious rebellion from the adherents of the old faith, the old Empire having a vast machianist east to draw upon when faced with rebellion having its origin in this strong and enduring faith where the Vithanama do not.

All of which presents us with an analogous situation to the Kothari, save only that the Vithanama originally were not so totally Ardavan to begin with (their original state had/has a large polytheist-shamanist element), and the Vithanama Empire is further away from Ardavans heart than the Kothari were in their time of choosing. All of which makes the choice to go native that much more alluring than it was for the Kothari Exatai (especially in light of the contexts I already mentioned), something perhaps already signalled by the fact they adopted a native naming convention for their new state.

 

[spryllino]

A map showing the Subdivisions of the Karapeshai Exatai, the Farubaida o Caroha, and the Kothari Exatai

Notes to the Kothari Exatai:

- The Prince of the Star, as well as controlling the Had valley and Athas, controls most of the coastal cities of Hanakar directly through garrisons (including those responsible for the present revolt), and these cities are thus kept separate from the lands of the Eagle, which cover the rest of Hanakar.
- The Princes of the Morning Star and the Moon are Ardavani. (The Moon duplicates a Karapeshai principality, but I suppose that’s quite a likely piece of duplication. The Morning Star is not-Venus, a reference to the Kothari interest in astronomy. The two principalities here are especially small for various reasons.)
- Axe, Tree, and Rock cover Zyeshu, and Rock also covers some other territory that was anciently Palmyrian.
- Snow covers Doral.
- Stone covers formerly Hu’ut lands, mostly.
- What is now autonomous Palmyra was divided between Stone, Moon, Snow and Rock, and much of it belonged to Knife, which has been disrupted by the most recent war. However, patterns of landowning in southern Palmyra have remained on the old Kothari model, more or less, and so Rock and Snow influence is still important in the south.

- I imagine that some of the above will probably have objectionable elements (Thlayli/NK?) but I think I might as well sort that out here by editing afterwards if necessary as wait until I next see you on #nes.

 

[North King]

Not Venus, but luckily there is a Morning Star still.

Nice map!

EDIT: Incidentally, the planets ARE lacking names in general.

EDITEDIT: I do appreciate the inclusion of other regional divides in the map.

 

[Thlayli]

It looks good; the only possible problem (like you said) is that the Karapeshai also have a Moon princedom for the Vithana, but it's very possible that they were independent creations and don't recognize each others existence.

Overall, very solid.

 

[Thlayli]

Rather, they could try. Proceeding to be torn to shreds by a hostile populace. I would guess they would fare rather less well than the Dulama Empite did when they faced religious rebellion from the adherents of the old faith, the old Empire having a vast machianist east to draw upon when faced with rebellion having its origin in this strong and enduring faith where the Vithanama do not.

All of which presents us with an analogous situation to the Kothari, save only that the Vithanama originally were not so totally Ardavan to begin with (their original state had/has a large polytheist-shamanist element), and the Vithanama Empire is further away from Ardavans heart than the Kothari were in their time of choosing. All of which makes the choice to go native that much more alluring than it was for the Kothari Exatai (especially in light of the contexts I already mentioned), something perhaps already signalled by the fact they adopted a native naming convention for their new state.

And if history composed itself into neat, trite little analogues, it wouldn't be the enigmatic and difficult craft that it is.

You are laboring under a misinterpretation as to who will tear who to shreds.

 

[North King]

It looks good; the only possible problem (like you said) is that the Karapeshai also have a Moon princedom for the Vithana, but it's very possible that they were independent creations and don't recognize each others existence.

Overall, very solid.

Well, it's highly unlikely that any Vithana ended up in the Kothari Exatai, so I'd opt for the latter.

 

[Jehoshua]

And if history composed itself into neat, trite little analogues, it wouldn't be the enigmatic and difficult craft that it is.

We are not talking about history, rather we are prognosticating the trajectory of future events (you hypothesising subsumation to Ardavan, myself hypothesising the extremely small Ardavani (there are more Aitahists than there are Ardavanists) Vithanama minority going native). the future obviously is related to the past, after all it is a projection of history, but it is not precisely identical.

That said your assertion regarding history is quite correct, there are innumerable factors in any given historical context that muddy the waters of interpretation, thus the numerous historical debates that occur within the discipline (such as the intentionalist/structuralist debate within the historical study of Nazi Germany for example). That doesn't mean though that understandings on how any given historical event occurred cannot be drawn. Indeed developing such understandings is precisely what historians do.

Your other assertion incidentally, is naturally questionable short of a mass revolt actually occurring

 

[Thlayli]

We are not talking about history, rather we are prognosticating the trajectory of future events (you hypothesising subsumation to Ardavan, myself hypothesising the extremely small Ardavani (there are more Aitahists than there are Ardavanists) Vithanama minority going native). the future obviously is related to the past, after all it is a projection of history, but it is not precisely identical.

Processes of conversion in particular are very hard to model.

Is the ratio of Ardavani Vithanama to natives similar to that of the Tengrist Golden Horde invading Russia? Is it more analogous to the number of Arabs capturing the Levant or Egypt from the Byzantines? Could we model the future introduction of oracular teachings from Asihkar as similar to the relatively small initial influx of Christian missionaries into the British Isles and Scandinavia? Or is it more like pagan Goths invading Rome or Mongols entering China? I think you'd prefer to use those historical metaphors, since they show conversion of the invaders, but I would obviously counter with the Arab metaphors, which do not.

Given that there is a long and porous border with Vithana-majority lands, can we truly rule out the possibility of future waves of migration? Do we know what the size of the Vithana host and their families is? Do we know what their policies of intermarriage with outsiders are?

The numerous factors at play, most of them unmentionable, some incorporating resources that we, the players, may choose in the future to allocate or not allocate, and others incorporating factors beyond our ken, are such that speculation, while interesting, cannot be said to make the situation lean towards one definitive outcome or another, since history is fundamentally unpredictable. Thankfully we have the caprice of the moderator and the near-randomness of our competing goals to simulate it.

 

[Masada]

Well that was strange, Thlayli and I managed to have a polite N3S conversation which has never happened before. The take-home points are as follows: (1) Thlayli noted how weird it was for Luckymoose and I to agree on anything. (2) We both agreed that we don't much like having our knowledge of Aitahism and Ardavani respectively being second-guessed. (3) We both also agreed that it was a shame that Taexi had gone insane this turn because if he hadn't certain developments this turn might have had some interesting consequences for our diplomatic relations.