End of Empires - N3S III

[Jehoshua]

Presuming the Ardavan segment referred to me, I did not second-guess Thlayli's knowledge of Ardavan at all. I simply disagreed on the most likely trajectory of the Vithanama Empire (Thlayli's points are incidentally entirely valid, I just think that multiple compounding circumstances [dislocation, demographic imbalance in favour of natives, fragile hold on Empire and various other things] make nativisation theoretically more likely than the alternative).

On an aside though, I think its foolish to be hostile to inquiry and questioning on any topic (particularly in the context of a game). Spewing forth belligerence whenever someone questions some little thing, only makes the relevant party appear immature and petty. People receiving such queries should just step out of their ivory towers, point out why the inquirer is wrong defending their position, and move on to something else. So much better than angry bickering no?

 

[spryllino]

I would like to suggest that it's possibly a bit of an overstatement that the Kothari have entirely "gone native" in any clean-cut sense. There are not inconsiderable numbers of Ardavani and crypto-Ardavani Satar, and although they are the minority by a good way, their geographical extent will belie their numbers a bit, seeing as they inhabit some of the areas (like old Athas) that are most predominantly Satar (as opposed to the Hiut valley, where the Satar, I suppose, are a relative minority in terms of proportion-of-the-gene-pool). More importantly, though, they have imposed mask culture on the entire country - which again makes it seem a bit of an exaggeration to call it going native, really, even if they have in narrowly religious terms.

So they may have gone native religiously, but culturally I would say that they fairly emphatically haven't.

 

[Masada]

Presuming the Ardavan segment referred to me, I did not second-guess Thlayli's knowledge of Ardavan at all. I simply disagreed on the most likely trajectory of the Vithanama Empire (Thlayli's points are incidentally entirely valid, I just think that multiple compounding circumstances [dislocation, demographic imbalance in favour of natives, fragile hold on Empire and various other things] make nativisation theoretically more likely than the alternative).

Thlayli has a far better grasp of the variables involved seeing as how he would know the most about the Hai Vithana and Ardavan. Not to mention the fact that he's done what you seem to think is very unlikely at least twice now.

On an aside though, I think its foolish to be hostile to inquiry and questioning on any topic (particularly in the context of a game). Spewing forth belligerence whenever someone questions some little thing, only makes the relevant party appear immature and petty. People receiving such queries should just step out of their ivory towers, point out why the inquirer is wrong defending their position, and move on to something else. So much better than angry bickering no?

You might need to re-read what has been said because at no stage has Hightower asked me a question or sought to inquire about Aitahism. All he's done is make ham-fisted comparisons between Aitahism and real world religions even after I politely asked him to stop. Had he just asked, I would have answered. Instead, I've been insulted and labelled a cheat. So please stop trying to paint me as the BAD GUY in this little drama.

 

[Angst]

Thie whole Aitahist debate really touched me. This is an in-world where people may learn and study and trumph others through knowledge of the subject matter and arguments. Apparently people can have a heart-to-heart fiery debate about it and discuss philosophies and history of this world. Lovin it.

 

[das]

That's always a nice thing to see, and does show how far this NES has come. Sadly I don't have much to add at present and don't want to add oil to the flames (yet).

 

[Jehoshua]

I would like to suggest that it's possibly a bit of an overstatement that the Kothari have entirely "gone native" in any clean-cut sense.....

That's fair enough, the Kothari Satar at least in my equation are a bit interesting in that they were first established in a small holdout in the mountains that was purely satar and surrounded by hostile elements, and then only later expanded throughout the eastern cradle. Its quite understandable as such that the Kothari Satar in those holdout areas (old Athas and so forth) would be more resilient with regards to their culture and religion, since they aren't a tiny minority within a surrounding culture in those areas, but rather the dominant local presence. In the Vithanama Empire however it seems to me that the Vithanama lack such an exclusive refuge which could assist in retaining their culture and religion.

Edit: Btw, from what I read, I was under the impression that people in most areas of the Kothari Exatai didn't wear masks, even if they had the right to wear the lower half-mask. Some reference somewhere I think it was about how "some of the people *here* still wear masks" implying that most of the population don't. I can't recall precisely what it was I read and where (maybe one of the updates?) so it might be relating to somewhere else.

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@Masada

Thlayli has a far better grasp of the variables involved seeing as how he would know the most about the Hai Vithana and Ardavan. Not to mention the fact that he's done what you seem to think is very unlikely at least twice now.

Thlayli has never controlled the Vithanama Empire, sure he may be an authority on the Hai Vithana culture and on the particulars of Ardavan, but he is not so with regards to the state which is the subject of our discussion. Furthermore those particulars (the nature of ardavan and the peculiar culture of the Hai Vithana) are peripheral, we could just as easily be talking about an Iralliamite conquest in the same circumstances into say, and Aitahist nation and the same principles would apply.

Oh, and you neglect that the Satar were conveniently controlled by a player, which indicates some degree of control over the direction the nation would go. I would hazard a guess that since Thlayli wished to retain the Satar legacy, it was retained. Although I must also note that from what I read the Satar in the sesh culturally assimilated to a degree from their steppe origins, while retaining their religion under the favourable circumstances presented by the Satar Exatai.

You might need to re-read what has been said because at no stage has Hightower asked me a question or sought to inquire about Aitahism. All he's done is make ham-fisted comparisons between Aitahism and real world religions even after I politely asked him to stop. Had he just asked, I would have answered. Instead, I've been insulted and labelled a cheat. So please stop trying to paint me as the BAD GUY in this little drama.

He questioned your position, you don't need to make an explicit query to do that. Thlayli questioned my position precisely by stating his position in opposition to mine. Ergo, my point remains even though you are entirely correct that he didn't go supplicating you for answers by actually stating a grammatical question.

At any rate I wasn't talking to you, or about your discussion with Hightower (as you so duly noted, its not like he was a paragon of virtue in your little drama). Likewise its only about you insofar as you fulfil the definition of someone who acts in a hostile manner to their positions being questioned. Since you apparently have no problem with your positions on Aitahism being questioned implicitly, directly, or through an explicit inquiry, then there is no further need for us to discuss this.

 

[Hightower]

You might need to re-read what has been said because at no stage has Hightower asked me a question or sought to inquire about Aitahism. All he's done is make ham-fisted comparisons between Aitahism and real world religions even after I politely asked him to stop. Had he just asked, I would have answered. Instead, I've been insulted and labelled a cheat. So please stop trying to paint me as the BAD GUY in this little drama.

I did not accuse of cheating, and I'm sorry it appeared that way to you. I, similarly, do not appreciate being insulted and lectured to, nor your hostile attitude through this entire affair. There is nothing wrong, or insulting, or demeaning, or anything, about drawing loose comparisons to real world religions. (Obviously Aitahism is not Buddhism, and even so it isn't as if there's real tension between the Buddhist branches.)

However, I am willing to put it behind us, and let NK be the arbiter of what's what. After all, as a practical matter in NES terms, it is pretty irrelevant to me what's going on with Aitahism. I just found the subject interesting in intellectual terms. I hope you are also willing to put hostile feelings behind us.

 

[das]

Oh, I do have some oil to add to the flames after all - Thlayli's exodus tendencies (which I seem to recall you yourself had some things to say about, Masada - though perhaps I am misremembering) are hardly a point against Jehoshua when Thlayli does this same scenario so many times in different games. It's his prerogative, of course, just like retaining the Holy Moti Empire in its current state for so long is mine and reforming the Iralliam Church along lines that resemble Earth religions is Jehoshua's, but it is hardly immune to criticism. It is indeed highly unlikely, though I'm willing to agree that we should accept it as a fluke of the sort that history is full of. I certainly would not be very thrilled in the unlikely event that we chased the Satar out to the far steppes again and he returned them again a third time, however - though permitting that, of course, is up to NK.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I was under the impression that many Hiuttus had not adopted mask culture.

 

[spryllino]

Well, if so, that doesn't alter the specific point I was making in any case, which is that mask culture has significantly been spread from the minority to the majority.

I got the impression from NK and Thlayli, though, that the Hu'ut - other than the slaves - had adopted mask culture, but this is something I will have to think further about and discuss appropriately. Is there any specific canonical statement to suggest that they have not done so? If not, my inclination is to say that at least any Hu'ut of any social status would have adopted mask culture, although there might be poor and/or rural exceptions.

 

[North King]

You know, it's funny, I was hoping to reserve the top of the page for the update, and I was like, "well, it's at 38, someone will probably post overnight and then I can get it."

...

In general, I do love when people discuss the NES, even OOC, because I like seeing you guys get immersed in the world. But this might be getting a little bit excessive when there's... what, four pages of almost pure OOC comments? That said, here are a couple of thoughts on what I've been reading so far:

1) I'm happy to see that we've come to some sort of peace regarding Aitahism. Thanks, Hightower.

2) I think I know a couple of situations the Vithanama remind me of, but I'd like to not tip my hand, seeing as someone has already privately reserved the Vithanama. Yes, they are a fairly small group invading a much larger society, but people generally overestimate how small steppe societies really can be, or how civilized they are. Moreover, as Thlayli noted, there are about five dozen different examples of small groups invading larger ones, with different religious results (especially given that defeat usually can be used as explicit justification for conversion). Suffice it to say, I generally try to work without using explicit analogies. I'm a student of history enough to know that, contrary to what most people say, it doesn't tend to repeat itself at all, given the role contingency and very specific, minor factors have to play in it.

3) Hiut (because most of them are of the lower class anyway) generally don't get to wear the mask, but most of the aristocracy does, in order to better fit in with the culture. We (me, Thlayli, and spry) actually had a very fascinating discussion on the topic recently, the results of which you'll probably see filter through in some of the updates or stories.

...anywho, I'm happy to see how much faith people seem to have in my decision-making capabilities here. And though that sounds like sort of a discussion killer, well... the discussion might be going on too long anyway.

 

[Terrance888]

If you want have annoying OOC discussions as much as you want, come'on over to TerraNES. :3

 

[Jehoshua]

@NK: If it becomes a regular thing, just create a social group or thread for ruminations on the game. That said I think the discussion was pretty much over when you made your intervention.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I pictured maybe the elite 10% of Hiuth society using masks, and the rest, largely peasants and slaves, going unmasked. At least, that was my impression from helping them rebel for a few decades.

 

[spryllino]

Iggy: Speaking to NK, we have decided that it is just the slaves wearing no masks, by and large, but since they constitute a good majority of the population anyway, your point more or less stands, although not perhaps with such a small proportion as 10% of Hiut society wearing masks. I imagine most of the peasants to be slaves in any case, and I agree that they, in most cases, would not actually wear their wooden masks (see below) while in the countryside, or perhaps not at all - although they would, if free, be entitled to do so.

Commonly seen masks in the Kothari Exatai:

Golden - the Redeemer
Silver - Prince
Red - Tarkan
Bronze - Satar, aristocratic Hiut, aristocratic Palmyran (now in the south only), and Doral (as a recent reward for loyalty)
Bronze-edged white - Iralliamite (lay) clergy
Wood - Free Hiut (probably not all that common, as belonging only to the narrow category neither slave nor entitled to a bronze mask)
Wood half mask (vertically divided) - Freedman
Half mask (horizontally divided, covering the bottom half) - Zyeshu and Hanakahi free
No mask - Slaves (i.e. most Hiut, etc.)

 

[North King]

Out of curiosity, what are the blue masks made of/colored with?

 

[spryllino]

In fact, Blue is probably excessively expensive/elaborate for every clergyman to get hold of, however it's done. I think I'll go for bronze-edged wood instead.

 

[Thlayli]

Oh, I do have some oil to add to the flames after all - Thlayli's exodus tendencies (which I seem to recall you yourself had some things to say about, Masada - though perhaps I am misremembering) are hardly a point against Jehoshua when Thlayli does this same scenario so many times in different games. It's his prerogative, of course, just like retaining the Holy Moti Empire in its current state for so long is mine and reforming the Iralliam Church along lines that resemble Earth religions is Jehoshua's, but it is hardly immune to criticism. It is indeed highly unlikely, though I'm willing to agree that we should accept it as a fluke of the sort that history is full of. I certainly would not be very thrilled in the unlikely event that we chased the Satar out to the far steppes again and he returned them again a third time, however - though permitting that, of course, is up to NK.

I would imagine the Byzantines probably felt similarly about those annoying Turks, who just *kept* coming back over hundreds of years despite being repeatedly thrown or pushed back.

Also; one has to consider that the nature of each successive incarnation of the Satar is significantly different each time. Satar at this point is much less of an ethnicity than a cultural practice.

 

[Masada]

I did not accuse of cheating, and I'm sorry it appeared that way to you.

I refuse to accept this half-assed excuse for an apology.

I, similarly, do not appreciate being insulted and lectured to, nor your hostile attitude through this entire affair.

I called you ignorant, which is the truth in this case.

There is nothing wrong, or insulting, or demeaning, or anything, about drawing loose comparisons to real world religions. (Obviously Aitahism is not Buddhism, and even so it isn't as if there's real tension between the Buddhist branches.)

You can't seem the grasp the idea that some of us - most notably Thlayli, Iggy and I - have spent a lot of time and effort crafting a world we believe can be engaged with its own terms.

However, I am willing to put it behind us, and let NK be the arbiter of what's what. After all, as a practical matter in NES terms, it is pretty irrelevant to me what's going on with Aitahism. I just found the subject interesting in intellectual terms. I hope you are also willing to put hostile feelings behind us.

I'm not being hostile. I'm just annoyed that you felt the need to second-guess me repeatedly for no good reason.

I certainly would not be very thrilled in the unlikely event that we chased the Satar out to the far steppes again and he returned them again a third time, however - though permitting that, of course, is up to NK.

You should always plan for the worst. I've been brushing up on my Satar and shopping around for some stylish form fitting manacles.

 

[Azale]

We must reconcile our differences for a great cause. THE UPDATE!