England

[TheBigFundamental]

I always exclude England from my games because of how the starting spy functions. I'd prefer if England got a later&bigger boost to spies instead, for example +3 spies upon entering the renaissance era and all spies start at level 3, and/or that spies cannot be used in England's cities.

 

[Gazebo]

My interactions with you have always been poor, and I don't expect that to change.

You focus on the one element that almost has nothing to do with the point I'm making. That sentence is also explained in the following sentence. Should we not say that the Maya/Inca/Aztecs are primitive cultures? Is this some cozy liberal elite silliness on your part? The historical record / limitations of the English language / the dangerously PC culture that is pervasive in academia - pick the one that suits you.

Also, let me be clear : Early-game "primitive" civilizations winning is not a bad thing, it keeps the game interesting. However, the current balance seems to favor a primitive "early-game" civs that can snowball. Although, I tip my hat to the efforts that have improved the balance over time.

I don't hold grudges or keep records of good/bad interactions with people on the internet. I assume that language and text are barriers to fair discourse.

Hold on now. This has nothing to do with PC or 'cozy liberal elite silliness' (the fact that you call it that, without any indication that I hold this type of view, tells me a lot about your character, for what it's worth). I study British Imperial History. It's what I do. I've been doing it for over a decade. I study imperialism as a concept, as a global phenomenon, as British/French/Russian/American/Ottoman/German expression of political power and national will. And so on. There's nothing liberal about that. Or elite. I'm flattered if you consider me elite because of my Ph.D. - you'd be one of like three people who have ever viewed that as an esteemed thing that I've met in my life. That said, you don't get to toss around words like 'primitive' as a comparative model without raising eyebrows. Sorry, you don't. That's not PC, that's called making a lazy argument. Because, you see, the term 'primitive' exists to denigrate, downplay, and otherwise dismiss cultures and peoples who did not conform to the model of development popularized by western civilization. So yeah, an argument that Britain 'doesn't do as well as primitive cultures' is plain dumb, and - by making it - you cheapen whatever argument you're actually trying to make.

Disabling advanced actions until renaissance, when everyone else gets access to their own spies, sounds fair to me.

I will echo other people’s sentiment about England’s spy. While not necessarily unbalanced, it is a “feels bad, man” mechanic. It gives England a way to pick on a single competitor civ for 3 full eras with absolutely no counter. It just doesn’t feel... fair. At all. England can steal gold, kill GPs, steal GWs and block unit/wonder production, and all you can do is ask the AI not to. And maybe they will do what you ask them to, but otherwise you have to wipe England out entirely just so they will stop exploiting a completely uncounterable UA. If they could only steal techs and give vision until you are equipped to deal with them properly then I would have no reason to complain.

I don’t necessarily have an issue with England’s purported lack of synergy, which I don’t even think is an accurate statement. Bonus movement and maintenance combined with a unique ship, combined with a production-centric UB sounds like synergy to me.

And no, the British get spies because they have historically been extremely good at espionage; not because of James Bond. Or rather, you could say tha James Bond exists because Britain is so damn good at espionage. The UA’s name, Perfidious Albion, is a reference to this. The cracking of the Enigma machine and the massive counterintelligence operations which preceded the Normandy invasion are only the most well-known examples of Britain being the undisputed masters of spying.

It isn't 'fun' to be on the receiving end of a spy, but it also isn't fun to be charged down by the Huns on turn 75 with no strong counter. I can see an argument that there's 'nothing you can do' about English spying, but you could kill her.

G

 

[pineappledan]

It isn't 'fun' to be on the receiving end of a spy, but it also isn't fun to be charged down by the Huns on turn 75 with no strong counter. I can see an argument that there's 'nothing you can do' about English spying, but you could kill her

Absolutely.

You can invest in a tough defense and alliances to check a hun invasion. The Huns attacking you is a conventional threat at turn 75, however. A spy stealing 300 at turn 75, when you can’t get constabularies to slow them, or your own spy to kill them, means that you are left with a single option: obliterate England.

Leaving England with a single 2 town still allows her to cripple you via spying just as well as if she were the bully on your continent. The Huns, however, require a working economy and military superiority to capitalize on their advantage. You can’t put England ‘in check’, all you can do is kill her, and that is a very expensive and time-intensive way to counter someone.

Here is what I propose:
England keeps its spy from turn 1, but advanced actions which explicitly harm the afflicted civ are locked until everyone gets their spy at Renaissance.

To compensate, here are some alternatives for England:

• England’s number of spies scales with era, the same as other buffs, so they get +1spy in ancient and Medieval. So they have 3 spies when everyone else gets 1 at Renaissance
• England gets a bonus every time they kill an enemy spy, maybe 250 scaling with era or something
• England gets a +5% modifier on all advanced actions, and ignores wonders/buildings which disable certain actions

 

[TheBigFundamental]

It isn't 'fun' to be on the receiving end of a spy, but it also isn't fun to be charged down by the Huns on turn 75 with no strong counter. I can see an argument that there's 'nothing you can do' about English spying, but you could kill her.

You can stop the Huns the same as you do the other early homicidal maniacs in the game, by settling in defensive positions, having walls in your cities and a decent army. That's a perfectly reasonable start to a game that doesn't really derail your (early) game.

Whereas if you're the target of England's spy, your only effective weapon is to go eliminate her from the game. So the equivalence you present seems a bit off to me. I can withstand Attila's attacks for 15-20 turns without much hassle and change to my plans, but with England I have to suffer the constant harassment unless I pour most of my resources into eliminating her, which is a much bigger deviation of my plans, especially if she's not my neighbour.

 

[Enginseer]

I think the problem is just that Agent can does much better stuff than a Recruit does. So England starts with a free Agent rather than a free Recruit. I know Recruit don't do jack when they're even earned.

 

[chicorbeef]

I think the problem is just that Agent can does much better stuff than a Recruit does. So England starts with a free Agent rather than a free Recruit. I know Recruit don't do jack when they're even earned.

I really like having an Agent at the start of the game though, and having all your future Spies start at Agent is wonderful. The difference in tech stealing is great. I don't think anyone's complaining about England stealing techs early game.

I think the only issue people have is when there Stonehenge gets ganked because of that English spy that you can't do anything about. Or you were planning to invest in a Shrine next turn but, oh, you just got your Gold stolen, got to build it at full cost or switch to something else, sorry bro. The uncounterable/unpredictable nature of early Advanced Actions is understandably annoying, so I think delaying it until other civs have reasonable means of counter-espionage is good, if possible.

 

[Galbias]

England keeps its spy from turn 1, but advanced actions which explicitly harm the afflicted civ are locked until everyone gets their spy at Renaissance.

I very much like this idea if it's feasible. Makes some sense flavorwise that an Ancient-era spy isn't going to be some master of the trade who can handle a hundred different things at once.

 

[Gazebo]

Absolutely.

You can invest in a tough defense and alliances to check a hun invasion. The Huns attacking you is a conventional threat at turn 75, however. A spy stealing 300 at turn 75, when you can’t get constabularies to slow them, or your own spy to kill them, means that you are left with a single option: obliterate England.

Leaving England with a single 2 town still allows her to cripple you via spying just as well as if she were the bully on your continent. The Huns, however, require a working economy and military superiority to capitalize on their advantage. You can’t put England ‘in check’, all you can do is kill her, and that is a very expensive and time-intensive way to counter someone.

Here is what I propose:
England keeps its spy from turn 1, but advanced actions which explicitly harm the afflicted civ are locked until everyone gets their spy at Renaissance.

To compensate, here are some alternatives for England:

• England’s number of spies scales with era, the same as other buffs, so they get +1spy in ancient and Medieval. So they have 3 spies when everyone else gets 1 at Renaissance
• England gets a bonus every time they kill an enemy spy, maybe 250 scaling with era or something
• England gets a +5% modifier on all advanced actions, and ignores wonders/buildings which disable certain actions

In my mind, advanced actions wasn't connecting with 'advanced actions', the spy thing. Yeah, I can see an argument for that, as the tech stealing doesn't take it away, just duplicates it. I don't think England would need a buff to compensate.

G

 

[pineappledan]

I very much like this idea if it's feasible. Makes some sense flavorwise that an Ancient-era spy isn't going to be some master of the trade who can handle a hundred different things at once.

im pretty sure you could already implement this change in SQL with minimal trouble.

You could set the probabilities of all actions to 0 to start, and give back the advanced actions via a national wonder. There is already building SQL tables where you can have buildings increase your spies’ advanced action probabilities. for example, the EIC wonder increases your gold stealing probability by 5% already, this is not disclosed in the building’s help text.

So, if all actions were set to 0% chance of firing initially, but EIC or some other wonder re-instituted the base-level probabilities for spy actions as they are now, then that should work fairly well. You could also have individual wonders ‘unlock’ their respective advanced actions:
gold stealing is unlocked by EIC (which most civs already have before they get spies anyways)
Great work heists and GP assassinations are unlocked by the Hermitage
Wonder/Unit sabotage is unlocked by ironworks

 

[pineappledan]

The one snag of my proposed system is, of course, Rome. If EIC/Hermitage unlocked spy actions, then Rome could functionally double its spy potency by conquering Carthage/America.

 

[chicorbeef]

The one snag of my proposed system is, of course, Rome. If EIC/Hermitage unlocked spy actions, then Rome could functionally double its spy potency by conquering Carthage/America.

I thought that you proposed to just enable those specific Advanced Actions through those wonders, not buff them?

Anyway, if it would be simpler, we could just enable all Advanced Actions in Medieval and be done with it.

 

[tu_79]

The way I see it, England is fine, but most players are not fine with her, since she gets banned very often, apparently. Having to utterly destroy a neighbour so it stops being nasty is not what people call fun.
As I said, being spied on oneself is not that bad, as long as the spy does not kill my people or sabbotage my buildings. If you could make English spies to behave until Renaissance, that'd be great, as we could tell those England haters that they just need to keep calm and let her be for a while. Or if you can find another way for England to be unique and fun, we're open to suggestions.

I can't think of any other civ unique that is so frustrating to play against.

 

[BazaarJack]

I don't hold grudges or keep records of good/bad interactions with people on the internet. I assume that language and text are barriers to fair discourse.

Hold on now. This has nothing to do with PC or 'cozy liberal elite silliness' (the fact that you call it that, without any indication that I hold this type of view, tells me a lot about your character, for what it's worth). I study British Imperial History. It's what I do. I've been doing it for over a decade. I study imperialism as a concept, as a global phenomenon, as British/French/Russian/American/Ottoman/German expression of political power and national will. And so on. There's nothing liberal about that. Or elite. I'm flattered if you consider me elite because of my Ph.D. - you'd be one of like three people who have ever viewed that as an esteemed thing that I've met in my life. That said, you don't get to toss around words like 'primitive' as a comparative model without raising eyebrows. Sorry, you don't. That's not PC, that's called making a lazy argument. Because, you see, the term 'primitive' exists to denigrate, downplay, and otherwise dismiss cultures and peoples who did not conform to the model of development popularized by western civilization. So yeah, an argument that Britain 'doesn't do as well as primitive cultures' is plain dumb, and - by making it - you cheapen whatever argument you're actually trying to make.



It isn't 'fun' to be on the receiving end of a spy, but it also isn't fun to be charged down by the Huns on turn 75 with no strong counter. I can see an argument that there's 'nothing you can do' about English spying, but you could kill her.

G

I'll save most of my response to a private message at this point, as it doesn't benefit the public discourse in any way. However, I will address a few points briefly.

[paraphrasing you]

"you can't use the word primitive without "triggering" people" : I'm glad you made posted this. It is precisely the politically correct nonsense that I was expecting. Is the word ******ed also a problem? If so, there is a great article I can send you for the historical background.

"it's a lazy argument" : I didn't come with the intention of arguing about the capacities of defunct, dominated, extinct [insert word of choice] civilizations. The point I find interesting is that you did not offer a safe adjective that makes everyone here feel safe. If you don't like the word primitive then maybe we should call them existentially-challenged?

Commenting on the balance of England within the framework of this game (it's ability to win), was never the point of my post. I felt like your not lazy and not dismissive response: England is fine, forced me to comment, because I do agree on some level that "england is fine". However, you've misconstrued my intentions from the start, and then used that as a distraction to not address the actual points I've made. Luckily, other folk that actually play the game have also commented and agreed with the very basic point I've made. Although it probably isn't clear at this point - I came here to help improve this game.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

• England’s number of spies scales with era, the same as other buffs, so they get +1spy in ancient and Medieval. So they have 3 spies when everyone else gets 1 at Renaissance

This is in my opinion the best choice. I was really disappointed not gaining another spies in renaissance.
I would give her an extra spy at ancient, renaissance and atomic era, but remove advanced actions till renaissance and remove the trade route bonus to steam mills to compensate. (I think the building is strong enough and didnt need another modifier)

 

[chicorbeef]

I really think we're overcomplicating this. Let's just delay Advanced Actions to Medieval and be done with it.

 

[BazaarJack]

I'll save most of my response to a private message at this point, as it doesn't benefit the public discourse in any way. However, I will address a few points briefly.

[paraphrasing you]

Is the word ******** also a problem? If so, there is a great article I can send you for the historical background.

Case in point - the word is now filtered out of forums, because its "dated and offensive". Wake up sheeple!

Moderator Action: Please do not derail threads, stick to the topic. leif

The word begins with an R and ends with a D. It wasn't created to offend anyone, it became offensive when 'sensitive, caring' people decided so. The rest of us are unenlightened neanderthals.

 

[pineappledan]

@BazaarJack... This isn’t the place to discuss the virtues of western chauvinism. Take this somewhere else

I thought that you proposed to just enable those specific Advanced Actions through those wonders, not buff them?

A binary on/off isn’t possible in the current system, I was advocating for wonders to take advanced actions from 0% to maybe 10% probability of firing. If Rome built its own EIC and captured the Cothon from Carthage then they would get a 20%.

I will reiterate that Rome capturing unique national wonders is dumb as hell. Thank you.

 

[BazaarJack]

@BazaarJack... This isn’t the place to discuss the virtues of western chauvinism. Take this somewhere else

Another enlightened fellow - glad to see you've been paying attention. Using the word primitive does not constitute chauvinism, but I hope you sleep so well knowing how much better a person you are than me. I actually think that England's political history is disgusting - their treatment of India in particular. You don't care though, you just want to get your pat on the head for being a good boy. *Cheers*

 

[CrazyG]

England is one of my favorite civs to play as. The tech stealing early game causes me to approach the game in a totally different way. I personally really dislike her unique building though.

On the other side, receiving the spy can be annoying, especially if you get hit by several production penalties in a row.

 

[TranceBlossom]

Are these empty claims that “England is fine” speaking from a balance perspective? Because that’s missing the point. She’s absolutely unfun to play against and has no counter to her mechanic other than literally destroying every last city. Unlike most other civs who you can effectively cripple, England’s early spy remains there even if she has only one city on an island left, and if that spy gets lucky on advanced actions with you, it can throw your whole game off. It doesn’t even help England snowball in any direct way, it’s basically a luck based mechanic that allows her to “screw this one enemy civ in particular.” It’s luck-based with no direct counter, which may not be brokenly strong, but it also isn’t fun to go against. And if it feels unfun, people who play the mod will continue to reroll or ban her if she stays this way, and I don’t blame them. Disabling advanced actions until other civs access their own spies as others have suggested seems like a great idea.