England

[Enginseer]

England is fine because the AI rarely prioritizes me(unless I'm her only neighbor) since I'm not the highest priority for them to focus when I play on Deity. So if you're suddenly snowballing and this English spy is on your doorstep pickpocketing your gold and sabotaging production...

It's just a huge observation bias from the complaints. Try AI-Playtesting with England in the game and they'll relocate their spy to whoever is the highest threat and if that's the player then it's the player.

Then you try giving one AI that England knows a big wonder-production bonus and you'll be sure England will never relocate their Spy until much later or that AI's threat is significantly reduced.

Besides if I was the AI and I had to plant my only spy, it'd probably be my highest priority target who might be the player if he's playing on a lower difficulty.

 

[BazaarJack]

England is fine because the AI rarely prioritizes me(unless I'm her only neighbor) since I'm not the highest priority for them to focus when I play on Deity. So if you're suddenly snowballing and this English spy is on your doorstep pickpocketing your gold and sabotaging production...

It's just a huge observation bias from the complaints. Try AI-Playtesting with England in the game and they'll relocate their spy to whoever is the highest threat and if that's the player then it's the player.

So everyone else here is biased except for you.. very objective, but you play on Diety (thanks for letting us know since that helps the context).

 

[Enginseer]

So everyone else here is biased except for you.. very objective, but you play on Diety (thanks for letting us know since that helps the context).

If you want to antagonize me like that, be it. Part of England's UA is being able to undermine the top dog in her known civilizations and if that's the player most of the time and that's what she's doing.

 

[kkkitten]

England is one of my favorite civs to play as. The tech stealing early game causes me to approach the game in a totally different way. I personally really dislike her unique building though.

On the other side, receiving the spy can be annoying, especially if you get hit by several production penalties in a row.

Me too. I love England's early tech steal, I can go for top techs for Oracle and drop a spy in a military civ to get some bottom techs (free Mining <3) . I do not like the Advanced Actions if I'm playing against her however; also I wouldn't feel she is weak or gimmicky if that got disabled until Med/Ren era. Would love if it did actually, extra civ to enjoy playing against!

 

[BazaarJack]

Are these empty claims that “England is fine” speaking from a balance perspective? Because that’s missing the point. She’s absolutely unfun to play against and has no counter to her mechanic other than literally destroying every last city. Unlike most other civs who you can effectively cripple, England’s early spy remains there even if she has only one city on an island left, and if that spy gets lucky on advanced actions with you, it can throw your whole game off. It doesn’t even help England snowball in any direct way, it’s basically a luck based mechanic that allows her to “screw this one enemy civ in particular.” It’s luck-based with no direct counter, which may not be brokenly strong, but it also isn’t fun to go against. And if it feels unfun, people who play the mod will continue to reroll or ban her if she stays this way, and I don’t blame them. Disabling advanced actions until other civs access their own spies as others have suggested seems like a great idea.

They are empty claims from people that clearly aren't playing the game.

She doesn't even need to be your neighbor, the pathfinder movements are so quick that England can be very far away and the spy can be on you in 10-15 turns. You have zero chance (not a small chance, a zero chance) to send an army there to do anything about it. She will continue to be re-rolled, or ruin otherwise interesting games for no particular reason other than "great design".

 

[TranceBlossom]

England is fine because the AI rarely prioritizes me(unless I'm her only neighbor) since I'm not the highest priority for them to focus when I play on Deity. So if you're suddenly snowballing and this English spy is on your doorstep pickpocketing your gold and sabotaging production...

It's just a huge observation bias from the complaints. Try AI-Playtesting with England in the game and they'll relocate their spy to whoever is the highest threat and if that's the player then it's the player.

Then you try giving one AI that England knows a big wonder-production bonus and you'll be sure England will never relocate their Spy until much later or that AI's threat is significantly reduced.

Besides if I was the AI and I had to plant my only spy, it'd probably be my highest priority target who might be the player if he's playing on a lower difficulty.

“If you’re getting harassed by England’s spy it’s because you’re a scrub who isn’t playing on deity so you deserve it”

 

[Gazebo]

I'll save most of my response to a private message at this point, as it doesn't benefit the public discourse in any way. However, I will address a few points briefly.

[paraphrasing you]

"you can't use the word primitive without "triggering" people" : I'm glad you made posted this. It is precisely the politically correct nonsense that I was expecting. Is the word ******** also a problem? If so, there is a great article I can send you for the historical background.

"it's a lazy argument" : I didn't come with the intention of arguing about the capacities of defunct, dominated, extinct [insert word of choice] civilizations. The point I find interesting is that you did not offer a safe adjective that makes everyone here feel safe. If you don't like the word primitive then maybe we should call them existentially-challenged?

Commenting on the balance of England within the framework of this game (it's ability to win), was never the point of my post. I felt like your not lazy and not dismissive response: England is fine, forced me to comment, because I do agree on some level that "england is fine". However, you've misconstrued my intentions from the start, and then used that as a distraction to not address the actual points I've made. Luckily, other folk that actually play the game have also commented and agreed with the very basic point I've made. Although it probably isn't clear at this point - I came here to help improve this game.

They are empty claims from people that clearly aren't playing the game.

She doesn't even need to be your neighbor, the pathfinder movements are so quick that England can be very far away and the spy can be on you in 10-15 turns. You have zero chance (not a small chance, a zero chance) to send an army there to do anything about it. She will continue to be re-rolled, or ruin otherwise interesting games for no particular reason other than "great design".

Just gotta say this now, you're not winning yourself any points by accusing everyone who disagrees you of [insert edgy popular meme phrase here] or ignorance.

England is fine. She can be annoying in some situations, sure, but...so can many civs. I'm willing to look into the idea of limiting advanced actions, but I don't feel that it is a significant balance concern. I really like the early spy (as @CrazyG noted), it totally changes the game for a civ that is otherwise kinda like lukewarm bathwater. Before we added it, England lacked a decent niche - now, she's the game's true spymaster from beginning to end. Does espionage totally and completely capture the essence of England? No. But Elizabeth's spy network was fairly robust for the age, given the many threats she dealt with during her reign. I think it works.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler How to have a reasonable suggestion be ignored, a guide. :

They are empty claims from people that clearly aren't playing the game.

Post comments like this.

 

[BazaarJack]

Just gotta say this now, you're not winning yourself any points by accusing everyone who disagrees you of [insert edgy popular meme phrase here] or ignorance.

England is fine. She can be annoying in some situations, sure, but...so can many civs. I'm willing to look into the idea of limiting advanced actions, but I don't feel that it is a significant balance concern. I really like the early spy (as @CrazyG noted), it totally changes the game for a civ that is otherwise kinda like lukewarm bathwater. Before we added it, England lacked a decent niche - now, she's the game's true spymaster from beginning to end. Does espionage totally and completely capture the essence of England? No. But Elizabeth's spy network was fairly robust for the age, given the many threats she dealt with during her reign. I think it works.

G

I'm not trying to win points, I'm trying to get the design changed to support better gameplay for players. Your 3 sentence response : "England is fine" isn't a good look either. Just sit up on your throne and point the thumb up or down pal with zero discussion. "Everyone who disagrees with me" on this thread is 2 people, neither of which have provided salient arguments, and/or ignore the points being made by literally everyone else.

Take a look in the mirror maybe? You flung the first mud: asserting I was some Britannia loving, war loving, idiot. Your arguments lack reason, and this certainly has become petty. I'll balance my own games for myself, and not comment in the future to spare you the trouble - sound good?

 

[Gazebo]

I'm not trying to win points, I'm trying to get the design changed to support better gameplay for players. Your 3 sentence response : "England is fine" isn't a good look either. Just sit up on your throne and point the thumb up or down pal with zero discussion. "Everyone who disagrees with me" on this thread is 2 people, neither of which have provided salient arguments, and/or ignore the points being made by literally everyone else.

Take a look in the mirror maybe? You flung the first mud: asserting I was some Britannia loving, war loving, idiot. Your arguments lack reason, and this certainly has become petty. I'll balance my own games for myself, and not comment in the future to spare you the trouble - sound good?

I looked in the mirror, but was blinded by my own gravitas and general awesomeness.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

I'm not trying to win points, I'm trying to get the design changed to support better gameplay for players. Your 3 sentence response : "England is fine" isn't a good look either. Just sit up on your throne and point the thumb up or down pal with zero discussion. "Everyone who disagrees with me" on this thread is 2 people, neither of which have provided salient arguments, and/or ignore the points being made by literally everyone else.

Take a look in the mirror maybe? You flung the first mud: asserting I was some Britannia loving, war loving, idiot. Your arguments lack reason, and this certainly has become petty. I'll balance my own games for myself, and not comment in the future to spare you the trouble - sound good?

He just said he's looking into limiting advanced actions, which is great to me. Do you have a suggestion? I personally like having an early spy (not so much the advanced actions).

 

[BazaarJack]

If you want to antagonize me like that, be it. Part of England's UA is being able to undermine the top dog in her known civilizations and if that's the player most of the time and that's what she's doing.

She doesn't just undermine the top dog. Every single game that I've played against England, she moves the spy to me. If this happens in a later era, it's not a problem, but when it happens in the Ancient Era it's a re-roll. The wonder races are tight, and not all of us are playing conquest. Deity may be your thing, but it's not everyone's. Including it in your argument proves nothing, so it seems like you want us to know how good you are at this game.

 

[BazaarJack]

He just said he's looking into limiting advanced actions, which is great to me. Do you have a suggestion? I personally like having an early spy (not so much the advanced actions).

I thought there were many other good alternatives mentioned by others, so I didn't weigh in. I've been pretty busy defending myself for using the word primitive. And yes, I agree it's been a distraction, but it's not all on me.

I think the spying bonus should be moved to Renaissance, beef it up from there to make up for the lost advantage from early game? Maybe increase the naval maintenance reduction further if England can't keep up? There are a lot of variables, and I know from other posts that we aren't redesigning civs at this point, but personally : I'd love to see England resemble the nasty, paternalistic historical record and set it up for bullying that synergizes with the spies. Maybe something that's in the vein of that awesome Autocracy policy that allows you to bully friendly/allied CS. Regardless, England should be getting in a lot of wars and pissing people off.

 

[CrazyG]

I thought there were many other good alternatives mentioned by others, so I didn't weigh in. I've been pretty busy defending myself for using the word primitive. And yes, I agree it's been a distraction, but it's not all on me.

I think the spying bonus should be moved to Renaissance, beef it up from there to make up for the lost advantage from early game? Maybe increase the naval maintenance reduction further if England can't keep up? There are a lot of variables, and I know from other posts that we aren't redesigning civs at this point, but personally : I'd love to see England resemble the nasty, paternalistic historical record and set it up for bullying that synergizes with the spies. Maybe something that's in the vein of that awesome Autocracy policy that allows you to bully friendly/allied CS. Regardless, England should be getting in a lot of wars and pissing people off.

This is such a bad suggestion. Even if you had -100% naval maintenance, this would be a terrible unique ability. England does piss people off and start wars (see this thread). Get an extra spy at the Renaissance isn't very significant. Anyone can already have a spy at that point from statecraft.

A decent idea is to only have advanced actions occur starting at medieval era, or occur at a lower rate before medieval era.

 

[BazaarJack]

This is such a bad suggestion. Even if you had -100% naval maintenance, this would be a terrible unique ability. England does piss people off and start wars (see this thread). Get an extra spy at the Renaissance isn't very significant. Anyone can already have a spy at that point from statecraft.

Did you miss "beef it up from there"? Yes, having 1 additional spy starting in Reniassance is weak, that's not what I was saying. I meant : have the bonus start in Renaissance, but make it more powerful to make up for the lost advantage. Perhaps, increase the tech stealing rate? I also mentioned making the spies work with bullying, which would be strong/flavorful/unique (somebody else mentioned this earlier as well) Then when it comes time to pick ideologies, they can pick Order/Freedom while still participating getting some ability usually reserved for Autocracy. There are many possibilities, but they are limited by the size of the code change.

In relation to Naval Maintenance : I said "if England can't keep up" [perhaps boost the reduction in Naval maintenance]. This is a quick and dirty way to add a small buff (that does scale) to keep them in the game, until the spy advantages come online.

 

[pineappledan]

A decent idea is to only have advanced actions occur starting at medieval era, or occur at a lower rate before medieval era

Not sure why everyone seems to hook onto advanced actions starting in medieval? Why, if you’re going to lock onto an era, would you opt to give them a full era earlier than everyone else, when that’s precisely everyone’s main problem with the current system? Why not unlock it at Renaissance?

Am I going crazy? This sounds to me like pulling a nail 3/4 out of your foot.

 

[CrazyG]

Not sure why everyone seems to hook onto advanced actions starting in medieval? Why, if you’re going to lock onto an era, would you opt to give them a full era earlier than everyone else, when that’s precisely everyone’s main problem with the current system? Why not unlock it at Renaissance?

Because other players unlock spies from statecraft social policies, which is usually medieval era.

 

[pineappledan]

Because other players unlock spies from statecraft social policies, which is usually medieval era.

very late medieval though, and only for the fraction of civs that pick statecraft. Isn’t that a tier 2 policy? That still gives England most of a full era to terrorize 1 person without reprisal.

 

[CrazyG]

very late medieval though, and only for the fraction of civs that pick statecraft. Isn’t that a tier 2 policy? That still gives England most of a full era to terrorize 1 person without reprisal.

Maybe I don't understand the problem because I focus on playing well and adapting to a situation instead of throwing a fit and rerolling my start. I think the problem is that apparently, some players re-roll when they begin next to England, due to the advanced actions. I think that is a gross overreaction. Personally, I would much rather deal with England's spy than Greek Hoplites, Shoshone's land grab, or a myriad of other civ traits that can devastate your early game. But I can compromise and say block the actions till medieval.

You can totally get that spy from statecraft, in early medieval, maybe even in classical. And even if you couldn't, its a unique ability, its supposed to be strong.

By medieval era, if you are being "terrorized" by a spy and think its so OP its not fair, I don't know what to say. If you really think dealing with a great person assassination every 20 turns takes more resources than dealing with samurai, or beserkers, or cataphracts, you're just wrong. The total loss of resources to advanced actions is not that large and you have several options to defend yourself. You've also had 2 eras to position yourself, either as not the tech leader, a friend of England, or just killing her. I'll respect complaints about losing production a couple times in the first 50 turns, that sucks. Complaining about in the medieval era is just whining.

 

[amateurgamer88]

This is just my take on the situation. I believe what's very frustrating is that you can't do anything about England's spy until you get your own spies or you conquer England (which can be quite impossible if she isn't your direct neighbor but shares your continent or such). It's probably that powerlessness against the AI that makes it frustrating. Sure, Greek Hoplites can be a pain but you know that, if you play properly, you can deal with them. Under certain circumstances like too many flat terrain, you might be in a lot of trouble. However, you know what you're dealing with and can prepare for the upcoming difficult grind as you prepare countermeasures. Settling cities at strategic locations and focusing on military techs are things you can do. With other UA and traits, we know what we're up against and learning how to deal with them is part of the fun. Against spies, you have almost nothing at your disposal and wiping England out can force you to go with a much less optimal strategy.

I don't know about other people but I do find the AI England tend to target me more. For one instance, I'm referring to my Denmark photojournal where I shared a continent with England and China. China was certainly ahead of me in tech until I got my religion but, for whatever reason, England still sent her spy to me for most of the early game. This might just be an odd game where the AI targets me due to me being a human so I'll just call it unfortunate. I don't know if that's the case for other people. I am curious if the AI tend to prioritize humans more or if it's really just bad luck. I asked her to stop but when has the AI listened?

I think delaying until Classical Era is fine. UA should be strong and that will give her spies more time to shine. It's the early game (Ancient Era) where spies can slow you down so much that recovering is practically a nightmare.