England

[pineappledan]

Credit to FieryCharizard7 for the white tower sql and lua. I wrote the text

This doesn't fix your overlap problem, since America already has a Hermitage replacement, but I don't really see how this is too much of an issue.

EDIT: Current 4UC White Tower features, which I guess will form the new basis for a VP England UNW discussion:

UW - White Tower (replaces Hermitage - Tower of Buddhist Incense in EE):
available at Banking
requires Castle
requires 30 Population
+2 Culture
+1 Culture for every 4 Citizens
+3 Culture to all Castles and Arsenals on Empire
+3 Gold to Constabularies and Zoos on Empire
+5 City Defense
Whenever you kill an enemy Spy, gain +100 Gold and Culture as an instant boost, scaling with Era, and a permanent +1 Happiness in the City
3 Great Works of Art or Artifact Slot (+5 Gold and +5 Culture when themed. 10 themeing bonus)
1 free Great Work of Art: The Crown Jewels
Production Cost scales with number of cities on Empire

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Should WT replace National Intelligence Agency (AKA Spy Wonder You Build Once Every 50 Games), Ironworks or Printing Press? There's tons of UNWs it can be.

 

[Gazebo]

Should WT replace National Intelligence Agency (AKA Spy Wonder You Build Once Every 50 Games), Ironworks or Printing Press? There's tons of UNWs it can be.

I think NIA.

 

[pineappledan]

It can't replace a CSD wonder; that's against the rules. Ironworks is a possibility, but there's no point in having a wonder that gives bonuses for killing spies before Renaissance. Can't kill spies if no one else has spies.

replacing the NIA would suck because that UNW basically just gives England's UA a second time. +1 spy and +1 levels. Woohoo. The -25% global spy effectiveness is also a counter-synergy with a spy-killing mechanic, so it would look bad.

IMO Ironworks sounds like an OK idea. Keeping it on Hermitage isn't hurting anyone either though.

 

[Chandler]

Will the AIs still spy on England even with those risks if they fail? I mean, as a player I'd try to send them somewhere else. Not sure how the AIs would react. And you wouldn't gain much if they don't send spies to your cities, right?

Just wondering. I might not be understanding the purpose correctly.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

It can't replace a CSD wonder; that's against the rules. Ironworks is a possibility, but there's no point in having a wonder that gives bonuses for killing spies before Renaissance. Can't kill spies if no one else has spies.

replacing the NIA would suck because that UNW basically just gives England's UA a second time. +1 spy and +1 levels. Woohoo. The -25% global spy effectiveness is also a counter-synergy with a spy-killing mechanic, so it would look bad.

IMO Ironworks sounds like an OK idea. Keeping it on Hermitage isn't hurting anyone either though.

Would it being a NIA replacement really suck? That'd be pretty interesting I think. The synergy would be there, and it would be natural.

Of course as Ironworks it'd be fine as well, but I sort of like the additional Spy on UNW idea.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s just boring is all; a doubling-up

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

NIA is a building I very rarely see in my games and everyone will build the Ironworks anyway - they're not more interesting than the NIA. I think it's more interesting that a national wonder made niche by its lateness is less so for the only civ in the game that depends on Espionage. Granted, you do have a point on the doubling up on the UA, but it did get nerfed anyway. Ironworks would also be fine for me, though.

 

[chicorbeef]

NIA would be ridiculously late, I'd just prefer the Steam Mill in that case. Ironworks or Printing Press sounds fine. Even as a Medieval/Renaissance building it sounds fine.

I'm in the minority here but Steam Mill was actually okay to me, it was boring but it functioned alright as a catchup building.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

NIA would be ridiculously late, I'd just prefer the Steam Mill in that case. Ironworks or Printing Press sounds fine. Even as a Medieval/Renaissance building it sounds fine.

I'm in the minority here but Steam Mill was actually okay to me, it was boring but it functioned alright as a catchup building.

NIA suggestion was taking into account it coming much earlier (late medieval, early renaissance), thus creating a synergy.

Also Steam Mill had like an average 3-4 Production over the Factory. It didn't catch you up, at this point those hammers are hard to notice, that's more along the lines of what Ancient/early classical UBs get - what happened is simple. You got a Factory. Factories are pretty good and help so it did probably catch you up, but purely by the merit of the building it was replacing. This one was slightly cheaper and earlier, coming out just when I want to focus on Public Schools, and it was awful as an Unique.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Thematically and flavor wise, I would like to see England as something like the "Mongols of the sea". They were incredible good diplomats in peace but also diplomatically with cannon boats.
Ships could be better in demanding tribute from CS, or Coups from spies in CS could also trigger 50% of yields from heavy tribute.
Also possible, archelogical digs always generate 2 artifacts, the GW stealing rate is increased (a lot of ancient stuff was stolen from their colonies) or doubled theming bonuses.
Enough room to overthink Englands focus.

I think there are enough other options for a UB which could be chosen and also make thematically sense:
Zoo: The first scientific zoo (modern definition) ever constructed was in London. The building could give more happiness and also science for animal deposits or gold on jungles/forests.
Harbor: I think it make sense to give a maritime civilization a building which is linked with ocean, or? I think one extra gold for ocean tiles, more yields for sea ressources, greater production bonus to ships and maybe culture generated by finshing trade routes are a great set for a UB.
Workshop: England was very forested and short before the industrialization, a lot of forests were gone by the demand for firewood. Why not make the workshop to a charcoal pile? It could give better yields, more engineer slots, improve engineers and generate a small coal deposit (2) on construction (like canda from indonesia). With that, you could start immidiatly with the construction of seaports and train stations after researching them. (And increase the chance to get a Hexxon monopoly which fits the ressourceful GB Empire)
Bank: Today but also former, London was a major place of banks and investments. It could give more gold, bonuses to villages and towns, gold from finishing trade routes but also possible, science and gold from spy actions. Economic espionage was very common and big industrialists were paying a lot of money to get access to new technologies.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Thematically and flavor wise, I would like to see England as something like the "Mongols of the sea". They were incredible good diplomats in peace but also diplomatically with cannon boats.
Ships could be better in demanding tribute from CS, or Coups from spies in CS could also trigger 50% of yields from heavy tribute.
Also possible, archelogical digs always generate 2 artifacts, the GW stealing rate is increased (a lot of ancient stuff was stolen from their colonies) or doubled theming bonuses.
Enough room to overthink Englands focus.

I think there are enough other options for a UB which could be chosen and also make thematically sense:
Zoo: The first scientific zoo (modern definition) ever constructed was in London. The building could give more happiness and also science for animal deposits or gold on jungles/forests.
Harbor: I think it make sense to give a maritime civilization a building which is linked with ocean, or? I think one extra gold for ocean tiles, more yields for sea ressources, greater production bonus to ships and maybe culture generated by finshing trade routes are a great set for a UB.
Workshop: England was very forested and short before the industrialization, a lot of forests were gone by the demand for firewood. Why not make the workshop to a charcoal pile? It could give better yields, more engineer slots, improve engineers and generate a small coal deposit (2) on construction (like canda from indonesia). With that, you could start immidiatly with the construction of seaports and train stations after researching them. (And increase the chance to get a Hexxon monopoly which fits the ressourceful GB Empire)
Bank: Today but also former, London was a major place of banks and investments. It could give more gold, bonuses to villages and towns, gold from finishing trade routes but also possible, science and gold from spy actions. Economic espionage was very common and big industrialists were paying a lot of money to get access to new technologies.

Wouldn't it be better to just have the White Tower boost some of these? This way nobody has to make a new building icon or think all that much.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Wouldn't it be better to just have the White Tower boost some of these? This way nobody has to make a new building icon or think all that much.

I think theres sure somewhere an icon which would fit, and thinking about a new building isnt that difficult. I would do that for you.
Or do you really want another UNW which simply boosts 2 or 3 buildings with some yields like corthon?

 

[Gazebo]

I think theres sure somewhere an icon which would fit, and thinking about a new building isnt that difficult. I would do that for you.
Or do you really want another UNW which simply boosts 2 or 3 buildings with some yields like corthon?

You just described all buildings in civ. They’re all yield donkeys in the end.

G

 

[Minh Le]

Hey, how about a NW which boost effectiveness of English Spies rather than giving reward on success? I have a few ideas:

• English spies cant be killed.
• Increase rate of advance action, so England can wreak an enemy using her spies.
• Increase reward from advance action.

Since we remove advance action early on, I think its reasonable to give it as a more powerful tool for Elizabeth later and it will make her more unique.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m meh about the idea of doubling up on the spy thing myself. It’s fine, but it gives up the chance to push a secondary VC or play style with england. Doubling down on the spies thing is starting to sound like pigeonholing.

Maybe if the steam mill gave a minor / boost on building construction, it would have felt more dynamic and rewarding?

 

[CrazyG]

A workshop replacement could be thematic. An issue with the Steam Mill is that it comes after the ship of the line, after I already made my big production move. Workshops come before, so you can use the extra production to spam ship of the lines.

Advanced actions are so incredibly random, I don't really want a building that rewards them.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

A workshop replacement could be thematic. An issue with the Steam Mill is that it comes after the ship of the line, after I already made my big production move. Workshops come before, so you can use the extra production to spam ship of the lines.

Advanced actions are so incredibly random, I don't really want a building that rewards them.

That's what I'm thinking, just move the Steam Mill earlier as a Workshop. 2 Engineers, 1 per 4 , still gives bonus to and Coal; in addition to normal Workshop stuff. (Someone did spawning in Coal, could that be interesting, somehow?)

Or how early/ great will the NIA UNW replacement come/ could be?

 

[Gazebo]

I don't think that focusing in on more spy stuff for England is a problem - they're the only Spy civ, and Spies have a lot of flexibility in terms of utility.

Anyways shifting away from the Steam Mill has opened up some options for England's UA, since the White Tower does the UA already. So I'm dropping the Rank and extra Renaissance spy thing from England (since it's on their NW now), and giving them this:

England will start with a global +25% espionage modifier (so better at theft, better at spy defence, coups, etc.), as well as a boost to travel/introduction/surveillance/rig election, etc. (all the 'intermediary' spy stuff). This means that England essentially gets a bonus 'rank' for its Spies above that of 'Secret Agent' (the ranks are hard-coded, so this is a way for me to get around that). I like the flavor, and I like the clarity of purpose: English spies can get around the world more quickly to do things, and can get more things done in less time. England can also go diplo, using their quick schmoozing and speedy movement to make trades more quickly to curry favor.

The White Tower will be a more slight version of PineappleDan's above. It'll have all the bonuses of the NIA, but come earlier (Machinery), and the Spy attack bonus is halved (200, normally 400, for balance purposes). It'll also have a free GW (Crown Jewels), buff all Constabularies and Police Stations with +3 culture, and lastly a Spy Defense bonus yield for the City (equal to the attack bonus). I think it'll be a fun and distinct UB.

Re: other UB options...

Workshop: I can see it, certainly, but I feel like other civs already have the 'yield booster' UBs around that time. I think it fits a little awkwardly with Lizzy's kit.
Harbor: I don't want a coastal-only UB (and it'd be weird otherwise, unlike the Runestone).
Bank: It'd be hard to distinguish it from the Hanse around that same time, and again it'd just be a yield steroid
Zoo: not terribly exciting

G

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Would future Spies come as Agents (not that they need to)? White Tower does look solid to me. Like that Spies establish themselves twice as fast.

Wonder what current England-haters have to say about the better Spies.

The only other issue I have with the early Spy is that you can't use them to have a net gain in CS influence. You can equalize the loss in-between the election rigging. Seeing the rest of what the White Tower bonuses are, it just looks more and more sub-optimal.