England

[I_Play_Prince_Difficulty]

Personally, I think that England's UU and UB come in too late and that her early spies are really the only thing that sets her early/mid game until her Uniques come in.
( and personally, I find the UB underwhelming... but that's just me )

I also understand that England is a pain in the to play against

So I guess this is more of a balancing issue in playing as/against Eliz

Nerf her spies and you've got a less annoying England to deal with but also undermine her saboteur play style.

a gripe with in terms of advanced actions is the randomness of it, if it could somehow be more intentional and less rng dependent, even if the ability was weaker I think that might be a good change.

This would really be preferable (if our overlord would consider it).

 

[infidel88]

The only thing I honestly have a gripe with in terms of advanced actions is the randomness of it, if it could somehow be more intentional and less rng dependent, even if the ability was weaker I think that might be a good change. But that's probably not going to happen, so I would rather leave as is.

I would love that, but that goes agaist 'no new code' policy and is more an idea of modmod than addon to VP. Spies should create something like spy network (hello EU4) and you can spend points (lets say its 1 or 10 points per spy level against civ) and you can use those points on chosen actions (we need to count what should cost what). That would make advanced spy actions actually fun and useful. If I am against some civ for cultural victory, I just put spies in as many of his cities as possible and I destroy his projects. Or steal GWs. Or whatever. And it's easier to counter, as constabularies and police stations just reduce number of points gained by spies.

Right now, sorry to say this, spies are more or less in the same place they were in vanilla. Just an addon. Very random, you don't have much control of. A little bit like ancient ruins.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Playing England, it's enjoyable but I feel bad for the AIs as I see my Spy repeatedly destroy their about-to-be-built buildings and units while stealing research and techs. I would've ragequitted long since like probably 99% of people here would, but the AI knows not such tactics.

Let's cut to the chase, I think the Steam Mill is pretty awful. The yields suck. Turning a 1/4 into 1/2 scaler would maybe look okay on an early classical UB like water mill, but even then it'd not be good. +2 on Manufactories is not going to make an impact, neither will the weird TR effects. Coming earlier is nice, but nothing to lose my head over - I'm probably building Public Schools anyway. If I don't have Coal at this point and I didn't ball out of control, I'm screwed - sure, it'll help in some situations where the game isn't already resolved, but in general you should have enough to feel comfortable spending it on a Factory anyway. I can get it without waiting for Coal to be improved, but this is still one awful bundle for how late in the game it shows up. If you're behind it won't help much, if you're ahead and huge you don't care for what it has over the Factory. I certainly didn't.

I think even the Coffee House is better and more impactful than this.

 

[Gazebo]

Playing England, it's enjoyable but I feel bad for the AIs as I see my Spy repeatedly destroy their about-to-be-built buildings and units while stealing research and techs. I would've ragequitted long since like probably 99% of people here would, but the AI knows not such tactics.

Let's cut to the chase, I think the Steam Mill is pretty awful. The yields suck. Turning a 1/4 into 1/2 scaler would maybe look okay on an early classical UB like water mill, but even then it'd not be good. +2 on Manufactories is not going to make an impact, neither will the weird TR effects. Coming earlier is nice, but nothing to lose my head over - I'm probably building Public Schools anyway. If I don't have Coal at this point and I didn't ball out of control, I'm screwed - sure, it'll help in some situations where the game isn't already resolved, but in general you should have enough to feel comfortable spending it on a Factory anyway. I can get it without waiting for Coal to be improved, but this is still one awful bundle for how late in the game it shows up. If you're behind it won't help much, if you're ahead and huge you don't care for what it has over the Factory. I certainly didn't.

I think even the Coffee House is better and more impactful than this.

I've been tinkering with an England UB rework lately anyways, as the Steam Mill was the very first VP UB and it's...bland. Here's what I'm working with

Scales wide a bit (but it doesn't compound, so it's not a 'pillage problem' like before), and gives England a science sub-niche. If she gets ahead and others try to spy on her, she gets big bonuses for killing their spies. Seems like a more fun building than before. May be too strong, we'll see.

Furthermore, I've pushed the Advanced Action unlock to a tech, right now Banking. So England is nerfed a bit on her UA, but buffed a bit on her UB.

Thoughts?

G

 

[CrazyG]

That means there are two constabulary UBs, doesn't it? Siam's Wat is a constabulary, though it comes at a much earlier tech.

Moving advanced actions to banking changes several things, including statecraft. As England I really want to rush Navigation so I'm not sure how I feel about putting so many benefits into banking.

 

[randomnub]

Cool, and if I'm not wrong it sets a precedent for 2+ civs (Eng and Siam in this case) to use the same base building for their UB. Not feeling bad anymore with some burial/celidh edits

Edit: ninjaed on a 1h old post while checking in game UBs

 

[BiteInTheMark]

That seems definitely overpowered.....
With 8 cities in renaissance and 2 spies, you can trigger the ability every 15 turns by CS coup.
40 (yields) x 3 (era) x 2 (spies) x 8 (cities) : 15 (turns) = 128 science per turn.
I think in my recent India game with also 8 cities, I generate 200-300 science per turn.
I think 25 as base yields should be the maximum.

It still has the problem it's exponential. The base yields are multiplied with cities AND with era AND with spies.

 

[Minh Le]

I dont think England needs more science. She's already very strong in science by ignoring certain techs and steal them with her spy. Giving England more science would be over kill. I think something like gold or production could be nice enough.

 

[infidel88]

Is England OP, so it needs to be (indirectly) nerfed by pushing advanced actions forward, or just annoying? For me the latter.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

A Workshop replacement could also work.

 

[Gokudo01]

@Gazebo I like this idea but I think Compass( instead of Civil service ) would have a better synergy with beelining Navigation.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I've been tinkering with an England UB rework lately anyways, as the Steam Mill was the very first VP UB and it's...bland. Here's what I'm working with

View attachment 517479

Scales wide a bit (but it doesn't compound, so it's not a 'pillage problem' like before), and gives England a science sub-niche. If she gets ahead and others try to spy on her, she gets big bonuses for killing their spies. Seems like a more fun building than before. May be too strong, we'll see.

Furthermore, I've pushed the Advanced Action unlock to a tech, right now Banking. So England is nerfed a bit on her UA, but buffed a bit on her UB.

View attachment 517480

Thoughts?

G

I don't know if it's overpowered, but Science for England is a bad idea. The UA already does Science things by stealing techs, it could give Gold or Production. The quantities could be broken because of scaling, but it's hard to say. There's also another Constabulary already, the Wat, which comes earlier and has very similar yields. Also Science, also Culture.

I'll be honest, I don't like how the civ will be pretty much a weaker Ethiopia for 4 eras now. While you can often get more techs than Ethiopia with the Spy if you send it to the right guys and you can take longer before building Science buildings, the benefit of an early guaranteed religion with a billion Faith far outweighs that. Sure, the England has a naval bonus, but it's not enough to compensate in my opinion. Maybe the UA could get a little something?

 

[pineappledan]

Aaahhh crap. The 4UC mod has a UNW that gives instant bonuses for killing spies. I'm going to have to completely remake the UB.

If you make a “spymaster” hut, I guess I’ll probably just re-add the steam mill in 4UC. Can’t very well ignore a nod to the industrial revolution

 

[Gazebo]

That means there are two constabulary UBs, doesn't it? Siam's Wat is a constabulary, though it comes at a much earlier tech.

Moving advanced actions to banking changes several things, including statecraft. As England I really want to rush Navigation so I'm not sure how I feel about putting so many benefits into banking.

The Wat is going to become a unique workshop, since there isn’t one.

Not really sure where else makes sense. Besides, from a UI perspective, banking has a 5th slot empty.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

The Wat is going to become a unique workshop, since there isn’t one.

Not really sure where else makes sense. Besides, from a UI perspective, banking has a 5th slot empty.

Wouldn't it make more sense to make this Agent's House a unique National Spy Wonder Thingy that comes super earlier and buffs Constabularies and/or other buildings empire wide or something? This one exists, has no replacement and this way, you wouldn't have to change Siam.

Granted I am sort of curious how you've changed it, that will be an interesting sight.

 

[Gazebo]

Wouldn't it make more sense to make this Agent's House a unique National Spy Wonder Thingy that comes super earlier and buffs Constabularies and/or other buildings empire wide or something? This one exists, has no replacement and this way, you wouldn't have to change Siam.

Granted I am sort of curious how you've changed it, that will be an interesting sight.

You could do that. It’d be very early. Like crazy early. But hey weirder things. I don’t hate it but it might be too early?

Wat is same except I took constab elements off and put workshop elements on. Moved to medieval and cut price.

G

 

[pineappledan]

aaaaaaaaaaaagh.

4UC gives Siam a unique workshop too. I made the icon for it myself. How are you even doing this???

The idea of a national wonder for spies makes more sense to me. Spy actions are on a national/international scale, so having localized buildings which augment spying will look weird.

What 4UC did was make the White Tower (the keep of the Tower of London) into a Hermitage replacement. The keep acted as a dungeon for political dissidents and enemies of the state, and was later converted into one of London's most important museums. It pulls double-duty and makes perfect historical sense. Elizabeth I was even imprisoned there herself for a short time.

 

[Gazebo]

aaaaaaaaaaaagh.

4UC gives Siam a unique workshop too. I made the icon for it myself. How are you even doing this???

The idea of a national wonder for spies makes more sense to me. Spy actions are on a national/international scale, so having localized buildings which augment spying will look weird.

What 4UC did was make the White Tower (the keep of the Tower of London) into a Hermitage replacement. The keep acted as a dungeon for political dissidents and enemies of the state, and was later converted into one of London's most important museums. It pulls double-duty and makes perfect historical sense. Elizabeth I was even imprisoned there herself for a short time.

Ahaha.

I’ll trade you. Steam Mill for White Tower. You can keep your Watshop.

G

 

[pineappledan]

deal.
I'm sure you will want to do the White tower to your own specifications, but the code and text is all available to you from the latest 4UC download.

You will also have to ask Janboruta for permission for the White Tower icon's use.

 

[Gazebo]

deal.
I'm sure you will want to do the White tower to your own specifications, but the code and text is all available to you from the latest 4UC download.

You will also have to ask Janboruta for permission for the White Tower icon's use.

I probably should be, but I was not aware of the 4UC watshop, really don't want to step on your hard work with this change. I think the White Tower will work well for 'vanilla' VP England, the Steam Mill is just a bit too incongruous.

Cheers!
G