England

[pineappledan]

Don't forget the obligatory "building production scales with number of cites" at the end.

In addition to coming way sooner, that 200/ is 2x more yields than my original design. That's a lot of sudden yields. We never got to test it much, but on paper it's a lot.

With advanced actions getting blocked until banking, which is on the opposite side of the tech tree, and you being able to basically float this building wherever, might I suggest pushing it back to Economics, and increasing the constbulary/police station bonus to 3, and base yields to 42 to compensate?

EDIT: I also think the UA text could use a full stop between "1 free spy" and "spies are 25% more effective." It will flow better with fewer commas.

 

[Gazebo]

Don't forget the obligatory "building production scales with number of cites" at the end.

In addition to coming way sooner, that 200/ is 2x more yields than my original design. That's a lot of sudden yields. We never got to test it much, but on paper it's a lot.

With advanced actions getting blocked until banking, which is on the opposite side of the tech tree, and you being able to basically float this building wherever, might I suggest pushing it back to Economics, and increasing the constbulary/police station bonus to 3, and base yields to 42 to compensate?

EDIT: I also think the UA text could use a full stop between "1 free spy" and "spies are 25% more effective." It will flow better with fewer commas.

I agree re: the full stop.

Re: pacing, I stripped away the other buildingclassyieldchange, as well as the free happiness and GW theming. Where I took that away, I felt that the raw yields were in balance.

Re: White Tower, I really like it being in Late-Medieval or early Renaissance. Also helps that it is on the way to Navigation (and Advanced Actions, while good, aren't essential to the building).


G

 

[hokath]

As an Englishman, I approve this decision.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I like the UA/White Tower adjustment, but some things I'm uncertain about.

UA-wise, does that mean England gets no Spy on reaching Renaissance like everyone else? That's a shame.

The White Tower seems way too tall focused and for such an empire it'd be likely too gamechanging. The yields on espionage might not be super Op as it'll not be happening all that much and it's only in this one city, but the wide yields are very underwhelming. I'd prefer the spy yield bursts to be slightly reduced (100, max 150 for big espionage, 30-50 for adv actions), but the wide building yields to be better or the list of them expanded.

Constabulary 3 Culture is pretty small, and Police Stations are too niche for 3 Culture to make them buildable as this won't even be noticeable when they come out, one needs Autocracy's +100% Production and another 8 total yields to consider them outside of the capital which might be building wonders or something like Citizen Earth at this point, especially considering how little that is. I agree with pineappledan it should probably be 3 and 3 of some other yield for these, maybe on top of replacing the Police Station with something better, like the Zoo or Arsenal or Military Academy.

Election interference should definitely get some yields as well if it isn't already. Considering it takes almost as much time (early game) to steal a tech as it does to rig an election, I don't think England should do anything but
1. Move Special Agent to Singapore after Hiawatha decided to send there more emissaries than the amount of particles in the universe
2. Rig if chance is good, unless election is like 2 turns away
3. Remove Spy, move elsewhere

Election rigging is completely non-existent here with the fast spy set-up and no reward for rigs. Besides these, I like the changes.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I agree re: the full stop.

Re: pacing, I stripped away the other buildingclassyieldchange, as well as the free happiness and GW theming. Where I took that away, I felt that the raw yields were in balance.

Re: White Tower, I really like it being in Late-Medieval or early Renaissance. Also helps that it is on the way to Navigation (and Advanced Actions, while good, aren't essential to the building).


G

But machinery as necessary tech? It's at the bottom, at the mitary line. I think most people are focusing top side first and then enter renaissance over banking to get the next spy, before researching the bottom. Why not guilds? It's thematically good cause espionage was also done by guilds. And also necessary for the ship of the line.

Also, isn't this a nerf to England's UA? The NW already gives an additional spy, and when you drop the extra spy on renaissance, they have total one less spy than before.

If you enter renaissance, get one more spy and pick Statecraft your able to get:
200 science x 4 spies x 3 era / 15 for CS coups = 160 science per turn.

In an average 6-10 city empire, this is increasing your science generation in early renaissance by 50-100%. Ridicioulus.

Modern era with Statecraft and order (lvl1 tenet +3 spies), one in capital:
200 (base) x 8 (spies) x 5 (era) : 15 (turns) = 533 science per turn.

 

[pineappledan]

They will lose their free agent, but they will get 1 free agent 4 eras earlier than everyone else, and another free agent a different 4 eras earlier than everyone else, so who's counting?

 

[Gazebo]

They will lose their free agent, but they will get 1 free agent 4 eras earlier than everyone else, and another free agent a different 4 eras earlier than everyone else, so who's counting?

Yes. They still get the normal 1 agent at Renaissance. Just not two.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

They will lose their free agent, but they will get 1 free agent 4 eras earlier than everyone else, and another free agent a different 4 eras earlier than everyone else, so who's counting?

They get their free agent 3 eras earlier as usual, the free agent from renaissance is replaced by the UNW, which may come after entering the renaissance cause you have to research machinery and then build the wonder. And the option to get a spy in latgame is gone, cause you already havebuild the NIA.

 

[pineappledan]

They get their free agent 3 eras earlier as usual, the free agent from renaissance is replaced by the UNW, which may come after entering the renaissance cause you have to research machinery and then build the wonder. And the option to get a spy in latgame is gone, cause you already havebuild the NIA.

Right, so functionally you have 1 more agent than everyone else until Atomic Era. In exchange, all your agents functionally have a level cap of 4, whereas everyone else makes do with 3

Personally, I like how this sort of solves England getting an extra 3% cap off that 1 statecraft policy. That was a weird, arbitrary interaction.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Actually now if I read it right they can have 4 Agents at renaissance (1 from UNW, 1 from Renaissance, 1 from UA, possible 1 from Statecraft if taken)?

I think that after BiteInTheMark's maths, the yields might indeed be too high for actions. While you're NOT getting this many coups this consistently and the actual yields will be lower than he's calculated and the per-tech steal Science will soon run out as the stolen techs + Science bonus makes you the tech leader, they still should be halved to not be irrational - the per Constabulary/etc yields can be improved to compensate.

 

[dylansan]

I like the synergy of the spy stuff with England's UA, but do these changes reflect the real White Tower, thematically? Aside from it's use to execute spies in WWI and WWII, I wouldn't describe the building as having much to do with espionage or spying. I wonder if the effects could be tempered a bit by some references to it's historical function?

I don't know much about its history, but at the very least it's a defensive building. It's also been used on and off as a royal residence, an armoury, a prison, and a treasury. Some boosts to city CS or unit supply wouldn't be out of line. Some kind of bonus to castles and armouries might work, too.

It's changed roles a lot throughout history. I wouldn't want to complicate things too much, but I like the idea of the effects differing depending on whether there was a unit garrisoned in the city. Increased war stuff like city CS or RCS, or unit supply when it's garrisoned, and boosts to spies/espionage when it's not. But that's a bad idea with the current mockup, as you wouldn't want to miss a spy bonus because your unit left for a turn. Maybe there's something workable there, maybe not.

Either way, when England is themed towards both spying and naval warfare, it seems odd to give them a castle that's entirely a spy bonus and not a warfare/defensive bonus. I think it's a good candidate to synergize with both those aspects. If it results in some interesting choices like whether to garrison or something else, that sounds even more fun to me, but that's a lot tougher and I recognize that what I've put forth isn't the best solution. Maybe it'll get some other ideas going, though.

 

[pineappledan]

I think some base defense wouldn’t go amiss on the wonder; it is a castle after all.

There’s a reference to its role as a museum already; it gives a free GWArt: the Crown Jewels.

It was a mint and treasury before that; as evidenced by its gold bonuses. It was a dungeon for political prisoners in addition to spies. It’s original construction was actually as a bastion against the people of London itself, since it was built by the Norman occupier, William the conqueror, hence its distress reduction.

The Tower of London was also a menagerie at one point. They kept the first polar bear in Britain in the courtyard.

 

[Gazebo]

I like the synergy of the spy stuff with England's UA, but do these changes reflect the real White Tower, thematically? Aside from it's use to execute spies in WWI and WWII, I wouldn't describe the building as having much to do with espionage or spying. I wonder if the effects could be tempered a bit by some references to it's historical function?

I don't know much about its history, but at the very least it's a defensive building. It's also been used on and off as a royal residence, an armoury, a prison, and a treasury. Some boosts to city CS or unit supply wouldn't be out of line. Some kind of bonus to castles and armouries might work, too.

It's changed roles a lot throughout history. I wouldn't want to complicate things too much, but I like the idea of the effects differing depending on whether there was a unit garrisoned in the city. Increased war stuff like city CS or RCS, or unit supply when it's garrisoned, and boosts to spies/espionage when it's not. But that's a bad idea with the current mockup, as you wouldn't want to miss a spy bonus because your unit left for a turn. Maybe there's something workable there, maybe not.

Either way, when England is themed towards both spying and naval warfare, it seems odd to give them a castle that's entirely a spy bonus and not a warfare/defensive bonus. I think it's a good candidate to synergize with both those aspects. If it results in some interesting choices like whether to garrison or something else, that sounds even more fun to me, but that's a lot tougher and I recognize that what I've put forth isn't the best solution. Maybe it'll get some other ideas going, though.

Changed to spawn the unique, unkillable, 250 Strength GDR replacement, THE BEEFEATER.

G

 

[civplayer33]

Changed to spawn the unique, unkillable, 250 Strength GDR replacement, THE BEEFEATER.

G

Stop reading my mind! I was going to make a mod like that, though I planned on calling the unit "Voltron the Devourer" (no joke)

It's supposed to have slightly different specs, though, and some other, fun abilities, like eating airplanes that attack it and pooping out artifacts made from their metal

 

[Gazebo]

Stop reading my mind! I was going to make a mod like that, though I planned on calling the unit "Voltron the Devourer" (no joke)

It's supposed to have slightly different specs, though, and some other, fun abilities, like eating airplanes that attack it and pooping out artifacts made from their metal

So WALL-E. Got it.

G

 

[civplayer33]

WALL-E

Didn't see that movie; made by Disney and it engages in a paradigm I really hate: making non-cute things cute (even worse with dragons in some recent movies).

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Actually now if I read it right they can have 4 Agents at renaissance (1 from UNW, 1 from Renaissance, 1 from UA, possible 1 from Statecraft if taken)?

I think that after BiteInTheMark's maths, the yields might indeed be too high for actions. While you're NOT getting this many coups this consistently and the actual yields will be lower than he's calculated and the per-tech steal Science will soon run out as the stolen techs + Science bonus makes you the tech leader, they still should be halved to not be irrational - the per Constabulary/etc yields can be improved to compensate.

I dunno how big the base chance for rigging elections is and how the 25% greater efficiency is working. (shorter time, less chance for fail?) But with the lvl 2 agents, my fail rate at rigging elections is already extremely low. I think not less than 75% of the calculated yields is realistic.

For comparison, my Korea game with 10 cities in early industrial age is generating 680 science per turn (I use 44 specialists, so lets substract 150 science), which result in 530 science without UA.
In that state of the game, England would have atleast 4 agents, era modifier is 4 and elections can be rigged every 15 turns, lets say 80% success rate.
200 x 4 x 4 / 15 *0.8 = 170 science per turn.
Without statecraft, which would give an additional spy, England would gain more science by simple rigging elections than a 10 city Korea.

But.... But... after researching computers, every other civ is able to generate twice as much science by the NIA, cause the base yields are twice as high as the UNW.
It generates broken high amounts of science after it comes out, while it generates only half as much science when the normal version of it comes out.

I also dislike additional ability to gain science by killing enemy spies. A lot of science and gold will be generated by events, not by direct yields of the city. The vulnerability can be very low, even the city is spitting out a lot of science thanks the white tower. If nobody is targeting your capital cause of low potential or of awareness of the risk, the ability is completly useless. Also, the ability only works for one city.

 

[dylansan]

I dunno how big the base chance for rigging elections is and how the 25% greater efficiency is working. (shorter time, less chance for fail?) But with the lvl 2 agents, my fail rate at rigging elections is already extremely low. I think not less than 75% of the calculated yields is realistic.

For comparison, my Korea game with 10 cities in early industrial age is generating 680 science per turn (I use 44 specialists, so lets substract 150 science), which result in 530 science without UA.
In that state of the game, England would have atleast 4 agents, era modifier is 4 and elections can be rigged every 15 turns, lets say 80% success rate.
200 x 4 x 4 / 15 *0.8 = 170 science per turn.
Without statecraft, which would give an additional spy, England would gain more science by simple rigging elections than a 10 city Korea.

But.... But... after researching computers, every other civ is able to generate twice as much science by the NIA, cause the base yields are twice as high as the UNW.
It generates broken high amounts of science after it comes out, while it generates only half as much science when the normal version of it comes out.

I also dislike additional ability to gain science by killing enemy spies. A lot of science and gold will be generated by events, not by direct yields of the city. The vulnerability can be very low, even the city is spitting out a lot of science thanks the white tower. If nobody is targeting your capital cause of low potential or of awareness of the risk, the ability is completly useless. Also, the ability only works for one city.

I'm also wary of the yields. Honestly, if spies get bonuses for nearly every action, it basically becomes a guaranteed, if staggered, income. There's not much skill or strategy to letting your spies do their thing and reaping the rewards. I'd prefer some different rewards for different choices, to force some strategy.

Maybe killing enemy spies (in any city, preferably) starts a "We love the king day" or something, stealing GWs and techs give science and culture, city state coups give gold, and advanced actions...do something else. Just make the choice of where to put your spies matter more.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm also wary of the yields. Honestly, if spies get bonuses for nearly every action, it basically becomes a guaranteed, if staggered, income. There's not much skill or strategy to letting your spies do their thing and reaping the rewards. I'd prefer some different rewards for different choices, to force some strategy.

Maybe killing enemy spies (in any city, preferably) starts a "We love the king day" or something, stealing GWs and techs give science and culture, city state coups give gold, and advanced actions...do something else. Just make the choice of where to put your spies matter more.

Isn't WLTKD just staggered yields by another name?

I'd rather use existing code here.

G

 

[dylansan]

If you got WLTKD at regular intervals just by having spies assigned somewhere, that'd be boring. You're always using spies, so you'd always get the yields, albeit at random intervals. If different spy assignments give different yields, you'd have to pay more attention to where you put them. You couldn't just rely on the wonder to generate gold and science for the rest of the game. You'd have to pick your priorities. Of course, if the yields are similar to what the spies do already, it's not that exciting. If stealing a tech gave science, it wouldn't really change anything. You'd still steal techs when you wanted more science.

What's the basis for boosted Great People assassination?

Spoiler Ideas :

Reduces Distress
Slows enemy spy rate 15%
1 free spy
1 Great Work of Art or Artifact Slot + free Great Work of Art: The Crown Jewels
All Castles and Arsenals +3
All Constabularies and Police Stations+3
+5 City Defense
+1 Supply Cap
Kill an enemy spy in any city: +1 (or +100 , scaling with era)
Scaling with era: (and adjusted for balance)

• Steal a Great Work: +100 (or maybe GP points, if that's possible)
• Steal a technology: +100
• City-state Coup: +100
• Perform an advanced action: +100

You'll have to clarify what doesn't work with existing code. Did you mean starting a WLTKD? Or something else?