Good, because no one says that England is OP. The problem is that her advanced actions in early game are annoying and disruptive, so limiting it, as you suggest, would resolve that.
England
- Thread starter Funak
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
Call it subjective, but England is definitly priorizing the human, or atleast have a weird decision making.
I lack science in most cases in early game cause I focus on growth. Beeing tech leader is extremly rare, but England sends it spy always to me. Often enough I had 4 or 5 less techs than my AI neighbors, or even less tech than England, but they place their spy in my capital. After stealing the one tech they might have not, I ask them to stop spying me, but their spy is still in my capital disrupting and stealing.
Disabling the advanced actions is a good solution. If you are worried by the statecraft spy, simply solve it this way:
England gets a spy in ancient era and spies start at level 2. Advanced actions are disabled till atleast one other civilization gets their first spy.
In most cases, this should be the spy by renaissance, but in the rare case someone gets it earlier by statecraft, your advanced actions are enabled earlier.
For my taste, its a bit sad there are 43 civilizations but only one which is using a whole mechanic in the game, the espionage. I would give England another or more spies but cut the other advantages a bit, to make it a really unique civ, playing around espionage and fleets. But its only my opinion.
I lack science in most cases in early game cause I focus on growth. Beeing tech leader is extremly rare, but England sends it spy always to me. Often enough I had 4 or 5 less techs than my AI neighbors, or even less tech than England, but they place their spy in my capital. After stealing the one tech they might have not, I ask them to stop spying me, but their spy is still in my capital disrupting and stealing.
Disabling the advanced actions is a good solution. If you are worried by the statecraft spy, simply solve it this way:
England gets a spy in ancient era and spies start at level 2. Advanced actions are disabled till atleast one other civilization gets their first spy.
In most cases, this should be the spy by renaissance, but in the rare case someone gets it earlier by statecraft, your advanced actions are enabled earlier.
For my taste, its a bit sad there are 43 civilizations but only one which is using a whole mechanic in the game, the espionage. I would give England another or more spies but cut the other advantages a bit, to make it a really unique civ, playing around espionage and fleets. But its only my opinion.
Minh Le
King
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After a few encounters with England, I can confirm this:
- If you (human player) are the first civ England meet (discover the capital), she will send her spy to you, and wont remove it even if youre not the tech leader, or ask her to do so (especially when you have territory dispute with her, maybe she sees you as a threat). In this scenario, England is pretty much my neighbour, so I just erase her for good.
- If youre not the first civ England meet, she still send her spy to your capital if youre the tech leader, but she will listen to your demand of stoping spying on you, or she will move her spy to the tech leader if youre not anymore.
- In case you just meet England, but she doesnt know your capital, dont trade embassy with her, so she wont be able to send her spy to you unless she spot your capital (which can be protected by border). So in this case youre safe.
So people.. there are multiple ways to counter England, its not that annoying.
- If you (human player) are the first civ England meet (discover the capital), she will send her spy to you, and wont remove it even if youre not the tech leader, or ask her to do so (especially when you have territory dispute with her, maybe she sees you as a threat). In this scenario, England is pretty much my neighbour, so I just erase her for good.
- If youre not the first civ England meet, she still send her spy to your capital if youre the tech leader, but she will listen to your demand of stoping spying on you, or she will move her spy to the tech leader if youre not anymore.
- In case you just meet England, but she doesnt know your capital, dont trade embassy with her, so she wont be able to send her spy to you unless she spot your capital (which can be protected by border). So in this case youre safe.
So people.. there are multiple ways to counter England, its not that annoying.
Minh Le
King
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I dont know if it can be called differently, but she will focus spying on you if you start close to her.
I guess it makes sense because I would do it also to cripple my nearest neighbour and conquer him.
She behaves normally toward you if she doesnt see you as a threat.
I guess it makes sense because I would do it also to cripple my nearest neighbour and conquer him.
She behaves normally toward you if she doesnt see you as a threat.
These 2 points makes it behave differently to you if you are the player. Otherwise, if you remove condition of being human, these 2 point would contradict each other. That's why I asked @Gazebo if AI differentiate if a civ is a player or AI, possibly using a flag for that.
Minh Le
King
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Errr.. maybe I didnt say it clear enough, but there is only one case where England behave differently (or is it normal?) toward human player. The other case she acts pretty much normally. I was the Tradition tech leader, my capital is big, so obviously she sent her spy to me, but we were good friends, so she removed her spy when I asked her to do so.
tu_79
Deity
There's a reason we have barbarians not able to attack our cities in the very first turns. This is similar.
Minh Le
King
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Except England is not barb. So do we need to ban the player from declare war from turn 1 and take away poor AI's worker?
BiteInTheMark
Deity
It would be an improvement.
As I noticed, it's a pretty normal behavior for deity players to steal workers.
Alternatively, the AI should be teached to cover their worker all time with a military unit the first 50 turns to deny this cheap trick.
chicorbeef
Emperor
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If only one civ goes into the Renaissance everyone gets a spy so most civs are still in Medieval. Honestly it's not that big of a difference to me either way.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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I agree England is awful to start near and if the leech latches on to you before you have 3 cities, she can do irreparable damage. It's not fun, it has no counter, if another warmongering menace attacks I can just get my own army and use terrain, if England kills my great people points and burns down my almost built Granary and then her Special Agent (levelled up from stealing my tech) decides he doesn't like my plans to build an Archer, I can't do anything.
That's arguable
That's arguable
So it seems we have a good solution (delaying of advanced actions).
England still gets the vast majority of the spy benefit, players don’t pull their hair out just being her neighbor. Simply and easy.
So let G tell us if it’s viable to code, otherwise is there really anything more to discuss here?
England still gets the vast majority of the spy benefit, players don’t pull their hair out just being her neighbor. Simply and easy.
So let G tell us if it’s viable to code, otherwise is there really anything more to discuss here?
BiteInTheMark
Deity
But, may I ask why the english UA desription says:
...., gain additional spies in the renaissance.
All you get in renaissance is the normal spy everyone gets. If this sentence is refering to this circumstances, why does it says "spies", plural?
...., gain additional spies in the renaissance.
All you get in renaissance is the normal spy everyone gets. If this sentence is refering to this circumstances, why does it says "spies", plural?
tu_79
Deity
Cobra522
Chieftain
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Personally as someone that plays England quite a bit, I would be more than a little disappointed if advanced actions were delayed until later era's. I understand that it's frustrating to play against, but its also a large part of what makes England fun to play as. It gives England a truly unique ability for a short period of time unlike any other civ in the mod really. This makes up a somewhat bland and much later UU and UB.
Changing it to only give bonus tech here and there for the first half of the game makes the decision on where to place the spy pretty uninteresting, simply send it to whoever is the tech lead or whoever has tech's you don't have. The advanced options early give you a couple more choices on how to utilize it that's not solely based on tech.
Playing against England I can understand some frustration, but a lot civs can cause that. The idea that there's no real counterplay to it feels a little overblown. Civ to me is not necessarily a game of rock paper scissors packed with counters to everything, it's more about adapting to unique situations every time you start a new game. I can always wish that my near by starting civs are going to be friendly push overs with late game mechanics and uniques but that doesn't always happen.
The only thing I honestly have a gripe with in terms of advanced actions is the randomness of it, if it could somehow be more intentional and less rng dependent, even if the ability was weaker I think that might be a good change. But that's probably not going to happen, so I would rather leave as is.
Changing it to only give bonus tech here and there for the first half of the game makes the decision on where to place the spy pretty uninteresting, simply send it to whoever is the tech lead or whoever has tech's you don't have. The advanced options early give you a couple more choices on how to utilize it that's not solely based on tech.
Playing against England I can understand some frustration, but a lot civs can cause that. The idea that there's no real counterplay to it feels a little overblown. Civ to me is not necessarily a game of rock paper scissors packed with counters to everything, it's more about adapting to unique situations every time you start a new game. I can always wish that my near by starting civs are going to be friendly push overs with late game mechanics and uniques but that doesn't always happen.
The only thing I honestly have a gripe with in terms of advanced actions is the randomness of it, if it could somehow be more intentional and less rng dependent, even if the ability was weaker I think that might be a good change. But that's probably not going to happen, so I would rather leave as is.
Rekk
Deity
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The issue people are having is that you can't adapt the the unique situation of England starting near you and deciding to throw her spy your way.
Minh Le
King
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You can erase her. Its what I would do if Songhai start near me also. Or he will lay waste to me with that freakin mandekalu and his UA. Sometime with terribly early aggressor you have to take the initiative.
Rekk
Deity
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"Near" doesn't necessarily mean "next to". If she's on the other side of another civ, are you really going to be erasing her any time soon?
Minh Le
King
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If there is no 'territory dispute' between you and England, she will behave normally toward you. You can either make friend with her or cease to be the tech lead, then she will move her spy away from your capital.
