[MOD] Erebus in the Balance Update

[[to_xp]Gekko]

you should ask Terkhen, iirc they are team wonders in Extramodmod

 

[Terkhen]

ExtraModMod has it because it was implemented in MNAI. I cannot find a More Naval AI changelog that mentions this ATM, but check for example this link about an issue with the original implementation that has been fixed already by Tholal in recent versions: http://sourceforge.net/p/tholalsffhaimod/bugs/215/

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Erebus in the Balance: Version 10



Download here.

Note: Unlike recent versions of EitB, this is not a standalone installer, but a copy of the updated Assets file. As such, if you have any ongoing pbem games, you will need to make a backup copy of EitB for use in them. To install, just paste over your current assets file.
If you don't have EitB v9, you can find it here.

Changelog:

Spoiler :

Unit Change: Chaos Marauder: Is buildable, Cost: 45H, Requires: Planar Gate, Carnival
Unit Change: Manticore: Is buildable, Cost: 240H, Requires: Planar Gate, Grove
Unit Change: Mobius Witch Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Mage Guild
Unit Change: Minotaur: Is buildable, Cost: 240H, Requires: Planar Gate, Obsidian Gate
Unit Change: Reveler: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Gambling House
Unit Change: Succubus: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Public Baths
Unit Change: Tar Demon: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Temple of the Veil
Building Change: Khazad Palace Loses Gold Resource, Gains Enchantment Mana
Ritual Change: Elegy of the Sheaim Cost Halved: 600H -> 300H
Ritual Change: Hallowing of the Elohim Cost Halved: 600H -> 300H
Unit Change: Boost Mud Golem Cost: 50H -> 75H (Same base cost as Worker)
Unit Change: Puppets gain SPECIALUNIT_SPELL which means they are in the same class as floating eye, fireball, and meteor and do not benefit from SUMM (Summoner Balsareph Exponentiation Problems)
Bug: Match Grigori Tavern cost to the new Tavern cost
Crash: Nox Noctis Crash fixed
Unit Change: Increase Fawn Cost: 60H -> 75H
Trait Change: Varn Gosam trait change: SPI/CHM (ADA) -> SPI/CRE (ADA)
Building Change: Planar Gate Cost Reduced: 300H -> 250H
Building Change: Planar Gate Doubled by Summoner
Building Change: Planar Gate Spawn rates changed to the following: Increased to Roughly a Third of the AC, number of units changed to as bracketed [] (5% 0->9 [2], 10% 10->29 [4], 13% 30->39 [8], 17% 40->49 [10], 20% 50->59 [12], 23% 60->69 [14], 27% 70->79 [16], 30% 80->89 [18], 33% 90-99 [20], 40% 100 [25])
Bug: Thessalonica's Alignment (Good -> Neutral)
Bug: Furia's Alignment (Evil -> Neutral)
Building Changes: Subtowers are Team Nationals (Alteration, Necromancy, Divination, Elementalism) (REVERTED until Tower of Mastery issue solved)
Unit Change: Spawned Mobius Witches appear with 5xp and level 3 (/10xp)
Unit Change: Built Mobius Witches now appear with 5xp and level 3 (/10xp) and a chance of starting with any level 1 spell spheres
Art Change: Mobius Witches now use the Calabim mage artstyle
Art Change: Revelers now use the Mobius Witch art style
Setup Change: Removed No Baron Duin Halfnorn as an option, replaced with Tower of Mastery requires Omniscience [Game option not implemented yet]
Building Change: Khazad Vault Thresholds Halved To: Empty: [<25 gold per city{-1 happy}], Low: [25-49 gold per city {-1 happy}], Normal: [50-74 gold per city {No Effect}], Stocked: [75-99 gold per city {+1 happy}], Abundant: [100-149 gold per city {+10% hammers and +2 happy}], Full: [150-249 gold per city {+25% hammers and +2 happy}], Overflowing: [>249 gold per city {+40% hammers, +3 happy, and +25% GPP}]
Bug Fix: Teutorix is now a Malakim-only unit
Bug Fix: Fixed the PBEM Turn 0/1 issue (NEEDS TESTING)
Promotion/Effect Change: Bless gives +15 Fire Resistance along with +1 Holy Strength
Promotion Change: Upgrades are free for Adventurers
Spell Change: Pillar of Fire available at Righteousness to Chalid
Unit Change: Chalid moved back to Religious Law
Civilization Change: The Infernal now have their spawning units changed to the following: Number of (2*Manes), Axes, Workers and Settlers is equal to the average number of enemy cities divided by two. Spawned longbowmen now start with iron weapons. As well as the rest, they receive one extra settler with the starting settler promotion. Other units (2 Champions, Hyborem, Imp, 2 Longbows) are unchanged.
Promotion Change: Hero promotion gets free upgrades (really only applies to Grigori Adventurers)
Strip druids of Channelling 1-3 promos. Grant Earth 1-3/Nature 1-3 instead
Spell Change: Tier 4 Priest Spells require the appropriate Unitclass (prevents Druidic abuse)
Civilization Change: Infernal Cities now start with 6, not 3, population
Civic Change: Overcouncil and Undercouncil now each available at Trade
Civilopedia Change: many entries updated. Credits to Bobchillingworth, myself, RefSteel, TheIanOakley, KillerClown, Maksim, Amelia, Bramble

Please use this thread to report any bugs or issues you come across. I was able to implement pretty well every major change I was looking at in the previous thread. I decided to go with TBS's suggestion of halving the vault levels for the Khazad because I think I'd rather see how that goes rather then changing their mechanics. I was able to come up with a better solution for Druids so they should be identical to base, just without the ability to cast Tier 4 Divine spells. Most of the outstanding issues are because I didn't want to delay this release (and my other priorities) with compiling a DLL, but that should come in v11 and/or v10.1, the others are because I only noticed them as the file was uploading.

I've included pretty much all of the civilopedia updates.

Have fun!

Current Known Issues:

Spoiler :

Tower of Mastery doesn&#8217;t read from Team wonders, only national (Once solved, implement Towers are team wonders change)
Tower of Mastery Requires Omniscience not implemented yet
Built Mobius Witches do not receive xp from civics but do receive promotions from SotC
Planar gate units do not receive xp from civics &#8211; intentional?
Bug: Turn number displays twice, once counting from turn 0 and another from turn 1
Bug: Reveler and Mobius Witch button art is incorrect
The Game Option Disable Non-Core Events has not been implemented

Playtesting finds two new errors. The first can be overcome by replacing your Civ4UnitInfos (in Assets/XML/Units) with the attatched file, but the second I've yet to find the cause for.

Issues:
1. Minotaurs and other PG units occur as AI start units or player start units in later-era games. This is because they didn't have any tech or Civ pre-requisites tagged, but I didn't think would be an issue - RESOLVED
2. People researching a religious tech after it has been founded do not recieve the appropriate disciple unit. (I have located the erroneous file - CyEventsManager.py - but I'm not sure why it isn't working as I never messed with that section of the file and that section is the same as my backup. Still working on why this is, if anyone has any ideas, do tell me) - UNRESOLVED

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

nicely done! I really dig the new infernal implementation and your solution for druids is spot on. did you give any thoughts to changing Cassiel's traits so he doesn't start with ORG which is useless early on?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

The Grigori were going to be on my next list for improvements actually, although I'd forgotten Cassiel's trait change (I presume you would recommend reversion?). For now, however, I'm just focusing on fixing v10's issues (which probably warrant a 10.1 release.)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Sandalphon is already PHI/IND now, but I think PHI/CRE would work nicely.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Sorry? We were talking Cassiel, no?

Why would we change Sandalphon? IND fits better synergisticly and lore-wise.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that was in response to your "I presume you would recommend reversion?" , I pointed out you can't really give Cassiel his old trait combo since now Sandalphon already has that

 

[Athmos]

V10 ! Nice, thank you

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Lairs

Premise:
In their current form, lairs are decidedly unbalanced from one to another. Goblin forts are so well garrisoned they are almost impossible to kill until very late in the game. Ruins are easier to pop, but spawn two-moving high strength lizards, which are easily the strongest barbarian possible to face naturally for a long time into the game (as strong as axeman and twice as fast, and can spawn from the start). Skeletons just suck.

Proposal:

• Lizards spawned from lairs gain the weak promotion.
• Skeletons spawned from lairs gain the strong promotion.
• Goblin Archers that spawn on lairs on game start gain the weak promotion. Hopefully also make it so they don't spawn more then once, more as a mapmaker aid.

Result:
Suddenly we have a balance of lairs. Goblin forts are harder to get rid of - but not ridiculously so - and spawn units with poison (which is more annoying then anything else). Barrows give the strongest enemy, but it is slow moving (although if they win they can become spectres, which is a concern). Lizards are the only two-moving barbs to spawn for ages, but are no longer as strong.
This does weaken lairs ability to threaten (which I personally like as I think the landscape is a bit too easy to tame in FFH) but it makes up for that by making it more likely that lairs will be placed and/or considered in our games.

Another change I am considering: Lairs are not poppable outside of your culture. This would help prevent people killing themselves off/gaining big benefits early and reduce the lottery of things and moving away from close lairs being a gimme to their intended use working, whilst strengthening the oft-neglected idea of garrisoning with a unit. The disadvantage, of course, is reducing the fun/challenge of exploring the map in the early game.
I would like feedback on this idea.

 

[lfgr]

Another change I am considering: Lairs are not poppable outside of your culture. This would help prevent people killing themselves off/gaining big benefits early and reduce the lottery of things and moving away from close lairs being a gimme to their intended use working, whilst strengthening the oft-neglected idea of garrisoning with a unit. The disadvantage, of course, is reducing the fun/challenge of exploring the map in the early game.
I would like feedback on this idea.

What about simply disallow exploring lairs with an enemy unit on top of it?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean have every lair spawn with a unit on top?

Quite apart from preventing you from having the option of garrisoning altogether, this guarantees the barbarians right up your throat, and would make the early game very dangerous to quick-spawning lizardmen or just hordes of normal units.

 

[lfgr]

I was only referring to the problem that other players might explore risky lairs near you (they get the possible benefit, but you get the possible very strong barb). I just realized this wasn't directly linked with the part I quoted, sorry.

I meant if you'd garrison a unit on a lair, no other player would be able to explore that lair (as in the spell "explore lair") as long as your unit stands there, making it possible to "claim" lairs.
On a second thought, this could easily lock a lair altogether if two players garrison units there... I'm not sure.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Hmm...isn't that already in extant? Isn't there a rule that you can only explore if there is only one unit on the tile? That's how I recall it at least, but I'll check.

If it isn't in this mod then I'll try to implement it - I don't really see a problem with a lair existing indefinitely, and if it particularly annoys you then you can always declare war and kill the offending unit.

 

[Athmos]

I'd like it as an option. It makes sense for balance, but it would be nice to be able to have normal lairs when playing SP.

 

[Bad Player]

Sheaim:
Currently the Sheaim suffer from significant issues. They have no particular mechanic to pursue that works well &#8211; their only option is Pyre Zombies, despite the obvious intention of focusing on the Arcane line. This is because their central feature, Planar gates are a flawed mechanic and almost always an inefficient way of getting units. This has been discussed to death, so I will not elaborate further, but suffice to say that the Gates are unreliable, inefficient and badly in need of buffing, especially as the units within are so interesting.

My proposal is a slew of changes; firstly, the Planar Gates cost is reduced to 250h, doubled with Summoner. This is to make it cheaper, especially for the currently weaker Tebryn/Os Gabella. Secondly, all units that can spawn are now buildable, with the appropriate buildings and at a reasonable price. This is to make it so that the player has much more control over what units they build and can really get the benefit from them. Of especial note is the ability to build Mobius Witches, which are mages with some extra spells. This should make the Gates a genuine advantage as they can build their special units, especially the mass produced mages. Finally, the spawn rate is increased to a third of the AC and the limits on number of units per Planar Gate removed.

Proposal: Planar gates are changed as follows:

• Planar Gate Doubled by Summoner.
• Planar Gate&#8217;s cost reduced from 300h -> 250h.
• Planar Gate&#8217;s spawn rate increased to roughly a third of the AC (5% 0->9, 10% 10->29, 13% 30->39, 17% 40->49, 20% 50->59, 23% 60->69, 27% 70->79, 30% 80->89, 33% 90-99, 40% 100)
• The following units are now buildable, at the bracketed costs and building: Revelers (Gambling House, 150h), Mobius Witch (Mage Guild, 150h), Chaos Marauder (Carnival, 50h), Manticore (Grove, 240h), Minotaur (Obsidian Gate, 240h), Tar Demon (Temple of Veil, 75h), Succubus (Public Baths, 150h)

There is a possibility that this is overkill, however, I think it's worth trying.


None of these changes have been implemented yet, although I have a pretty good idea how to do so. Any and all changes planned so far are up for discussion. If anyone has any other suggestions, especially on how to fix those issues that I don't have a plan for (such as Summoner, Esus, or any of the other weak civilizations), please tell!

I'm far from an expert, but doesn't allowing buildable planar gate units (e.g. mobius witch etc) remove the interesting theme of the Sheiam? I thought that their theme is to constantly try to raise the AC (mostly by Elegy of the Sheiam) and not spending their hammers on building an army.

Maybe a way to preserve their focus on raising the AC with all of their resources would be giving more bonuses for raising the AC. E.g. more units from the Planar Gates than currently happens as the AC rises.

 

[Bad Player]

On a different topic, if ppl think that fireballing golems of the Lurchuip are overpowered, perhaps lowering the XP required until you can get fire resistance promotion might help.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Copying over a couple of long posts. Apologies for the formatting issues. Context is here.

What should be done about chariot balance?

Make them require Trade, like in base FFH.

Whilst this is definitely a start, I think I agree with Mardoc that it isn't enough.

Even with requiring Trade, you're still going to pretty much always rather chariots than horse archers - they're cheaper, Trade gives other bonuses, and the defensive strength doesn't much matter. If you're getting attacked in this era, the attacker ought to have collateral and your stack's gonna die anyway. How about changing the units so that they fill different niches? I can think of a few possibilities:

• Different mobility. Cut chariots down to 2 move base, or give HA a boost (I thought there was a promo that decreased movement costs by one but I can't find it - makes sense that a HA could go through a forest or hill better than a chariot though). Or give chariots 5 moves and Heavy.
• Different vision. Give HA Sentry
• Purpose. Give HA defensive bonuses

I'm sure there are other possibilities that I'm not thinking of.

The issue is broader then that, I think. With chariots requiring trade again, I like the balance with copper weapons - chariots require less tech investment, but workshops are more expensive, and they have worse defensive strength and a slew of little effects (withdraw chance, immunity to first strikes, an extra first strike and so on) which bias towards the more expensive/dedicated line of Horse Archers.
The issue arises post-iron weapons, in my opinion, where chariots are boosted to 7/5 and become superior to the more expensively invested, best mounted Tier 3 unit - and in this mod iron weapons are quite easy to come by, with our small games making getting the mines or Mercurians easier, and the Mercurians line improved also as well as the Smelting->IW path being considerably boosted also. In comparison, Stirrups->Warhorses is a very uninteresting line, and gives T3 units that aren't even the best mounted out there.

Thus, I think we want to nerf chariots a little so that they fulfill a slightly different role. I'm thinking take them down to 2 moves but perhaps adding a first strike. The 5-move plus heavy idea is intriguing, but I worry it would make them far too powerful on roads/for defence. As well as this, I will almost certainly remove the ability to use mithril weapons, to help champions out a little. (Incidentally, for some reason axes can use mithril weapons. I thought this was changed and will be removing it, unless anyone has any arguments for it?)

A few other thoughts:

1) I think Keelyn is a little too weak now. Her whole shtick was the synergy between puppets and Summoner. Rather than remove that completely, I'd suggest making it so that the puppets themselves don't benefit from the Summoner trait. So a Keelyn arcane unit can have two puppets going at once, but units summoned by the puppets only last one turn... she still effectively gets twice as many summoned combat units (rather than 4x), but can get other utility out of long-lasting puppets (doubling of other spells, extra range, etcetera).

Whilst I would prefer to boost summoner in other ways (as I have), I get that Keelyn is going to struggle to compare to her 3-trait father. My intention is for Keelyn to be something of 3/4 of Perpentech's power (roughly, it is hard to deal with these abstract things) so that you are sacrificing strength for stability/consistency as it were, so I think I like the concept of boosting her in this way. However...I can see this being ferociously hard to do, and possibly even requiring changing the trait entirely. The only way I can think of is to make UNITCLASS_PUPPET unaffected by summoner, and then removing it from (and/or creating a hidden identical unitclass for) puppets.

2) I'd also suggest preventing exponentiation with Twincast: either Twincast shouldn't apply to puppets, or the puppets shouldn't inherit it.

Agreed.

3) I like the idea of Overcouncil/Undercouncil being available to Agnostic civs, but I don't like putting them at Trade. Why not bring back Way of the Wise and Way of the Wicked from base FFH? If I understand correctly, those were removed because they weren't particularly interesting techs by themselves. Put them back in the tech tree with Overcouncil at Way of the Wise and Undercouncil at Way of the Wicked (maybe requiring Trade as well for the civics; makes sense that these civics should require both Trade and Philosophy), along with the goodies that used to be there.

Possible. Trade certainly has a lot - possibly too much - going for it at the moment, and the religious line is very strong. Don't look forward for having to figure out how to arrange the tech tree, though - maybe just make them require Philosophy as well?

4) Fawn nerf hurts all elves rather than Volanna specifically. I don't object to the change (fawns are really good units) but I think the synergy between Aggressive and Sinister is really strong. If you're going to keep that, I'd suggest the following:
Remove Rivanna (who I don't understand anyway), change Volanna to Aggressive/Summoner (parallel to Faeryl's Raiders/Arcane).

I...don't know here. I can't see any good way of pairing Volanna up, but I really want her to be a non-arcane alternative to Faeryl. Maybe AGG/IND, for all that doesn't fit at all? After all, IND isn't a particularly strong trait, and certainly weaker then EXP so the two traits might balance each other out a little. I also don't understand what Rivanna is supposed to be doing there.

6) Druids seem underpowered for non-Dwarven civs now. Which maybe brings Commune with Nature in balance with other prereqs for Divine Essence (Righteousness, Malevolent Designs, Theology), none of which seems like a particularly good deal. I'd suggest a big price cut for all of these techs (bringing them in line with Arcane Lore).

There are going to need to be some serious changes here, for sure.
I think, for a start, I'm going to make Feral Bond an alternative prerequisite (as a prereq on its own, not with priesthood). I understand that Sareln wanted to reduce the cross-pollination of the tech tree that was rife in the base game, but a) Feral Bond is weak currently, as is a lot of that end of the tree, b) it fits very well and c) it offers a route without going down the spiritual end of the tree, which is currently quite strong and doesn't need the boost. I think I will also reduce Feral Bond's cost to 1000b (same as stirrups) and reduce rangers cost to 120h (from 150h). Phew, little sidetracked here. Anyway, any disagreements?
So I agree that Commune with Nature, Righteousness, Malevolent Designs, Theology and Rage all could do with a price cut (sidebar: maybe Paladins go to Righteousness and Eidilons to Rage?). How about 65% of their current price? (CwN/Rage:6800->4420 Theo:7600->4940 MD/Right:7400->4810). Divine Essence could maybe also do with a bit of a cut, to be more in line with SoW. (maybe 9600->9000 SoW is 8800) What do people think about these changes? I'm a little wary of strengthening this area any more then it has already been done so, and also about being too liberal with tech prices.

Why does EitB remove the free trade route at Currency?

I'm not certain, but it's probably because new trade routes were added to a bunch of buildings and/or other techs to make them more appealing.

This. Whether or not it is valid is another matter - currency isn't looking too weak but I'd be happy to move another forward, say from guilds.


Also, quickly: Why do Marksmen require level 6 to upgrade to them? They aren't that good and given only longbows can upgrade to them, it seems excessive. Unless I get a good reason I'll make them buildable with Precision and Archery Range as prereqs.


TLDR: I am considering the following changes:

These are more definite:

• Chariots lose mithril weaponry.
• Axes lose mithril weaponry.
• Chariots require Trade.
• Chariots have two moves (down from three)
• Twincast doesn't affect puppets (only one puppet is produced)
• Feral Bond leads to Divine Essence.
• Feral Bond cost changed 1200->1000b.
• Ranger cost changed 150->120h.
• Rage, Righteousness, Commune with Nature, Theology and Malevolent Designs have their price reduced to 65% of current. (CwN/Rage:6800->4420 Theo:7600->4940 MD/Right:7400->4810)
• Marksmen buildable, require Archery Range and Precision. No longer require a level requirement to upgrade.

And these are worth considering but not firmed up yet:

• Something something Keelyn. Boost her puppetering abilities somehow. (Possibly make Summoner not affect UNITCLASS_PUPPET, revert the SPECIALUNIT_SPELL change, and figure out how to make Puppets last two turns unlike their summons - puppets lose unitclass_puppet, str 3->2 possibly?)
• Potentially bring back Way of the Wise/Wicked, restoring previous benefits and adding the appropriate councils. Loses points for simplicity/work. Maybe make the Councils require Philosophy and Trade instead?
• Something something Volanna/Rivanna changes. Potentially Volanna -> IND/AGG, Rivanna axed. Bring up illusionist change at some point for consideration.
• Move Paladins and Eidilons from Fanatacism. Paladins go to Righteousness and Eidilons to Rage?
• Divine Essence price decreased from 9600->9000, to bring in line with SoW.
• Free TR at Currency restored?

[size=x-large]Proposal: Governor's Manors[/size]

Premise:
To put it simply, the current implementation of Governor's Manors is silly. They are such a vital and powerful part of the civilization's appeal, that the concept of them costing 90h to Decius and 180h to Alexis/Flauros is silly, and makes him by far the most powerful leader of the 3 (in my opinion). I intend to make the cost consistent for each leader so it is removed as a factor.

Proposal:
I have two possibilities I am considering. In either, GMs cease to be a courthouse replacement, and have their cost reduced. In the first, courthouses are removed as buildings for the Calabim, and the cost is reduced to 140h. In the second, the maintenance reduction of GMs is removed entirely, and their cost dropped to 120h. Of the two, I think I prefer the second as it doesn't weaken Decius overmuch.

TLDR:
I am considering the following changes:

• Governor's Manors lose the maintenance reduction.
• Governor's Manors are no longer courthouse replacements.
• Governor's Manors cost reduced: 180->120h.

As an open question: What, if anything, should be done to increase Decius' viability as a Malakim leader?

@BadPlayer: Given the massive increase in PG spawning options and the continued focus on using the gates, I don't feel that part of their theme has been weakened (remember the Elegy has also had a hefty price cut). I would hope that they would be able to spend their hammers on increasing the supporting units rather then focussing on gate ones, but who knows? Also they can get more (quantity, not different types of) units from planar gates now, if you look at the changelog.
The Luchuirp are not overpowered in their current form - in fact, they are one of the weaker civs that I will look at improving.

 

[Bad Player]

Yeah, I haven't played this mod I'm only basing my (weak) opinions on Tholal's MNAI mod for FFH2.

 

[Terkhen]

The Luchuirp are not overpowered in their current form - in fact, they are one of the weaker civs that I will look at improving.

The ExtraModMod thread has housed a lot of discussions about improving or tweaking existing civs, and the Luchuirp are one of them. ExtraModMod's issue tracker acts as a repository of the suggestions I liked, but have not been considered prioritary. They are usually tagged with version 0.5.0, FUTURE or no version, and are Proposals or Enhancements. Feel free to browse through the thread or the issue tracker for inspiration

In the specific case of the Luchuirp, the proposed buff included additional mana-based buildings which give Golems promotions. You can check it here: https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/3/luchuirp-buildings