Ethnic tension in Lithuania

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Hmm. Am I any the wiser?



Nope.


Sorry but I don't know how this joke can be translated to english because it just doesn't make sense in english ;) The main point of the joke is that the Tzar used an expression "a na chuj" which means -not literally- "what for" and literally "on a dick" and the workers took him literally and build a "dick" wider railroad tracks in Russia ;)
 
In this joke, the Czar allegedly asked "На хуй больше"?
In metaphorical sense it means "Why it should be wider?"
In literal sense "Make it wider by on dick's length"
 
HannibalBarka said:
Polish speaking people in Lithuania are Lithuanian, period.

Oh really?

You claim the same thing as Lithuanian nationalists, who want to forcefully Lithuanize Poles and deprive them of their language and culture.

But they do not think so about themselves. They do not consider themselves Lietuvans / Samogitians. But try to convince them (if you can!).

Indigenous Polish people of Wilno - parade on Worldwide Day of Polish People ("Polonia Day"), 2 May 2013:


Link to video.

Support for Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania (AWPL) has never been higher than now (and is constantly growing since 1992):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Action_of_Poles_in_Lithuania#Election_results

AWPL.png



Link to video.

AWPL is constantly achieving better and better results in elections despite anti-Polish gerrymandering efforts of Lithuanian authorities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering


Link to video.

HannibalBarka said:
Do you also think polish-american are polish !!!!

Polish-Americans came to the USA mostly during the 1800s and the 1900s (except for those in Jamestown who came during the 1600s).

On the other hand, Polish people in Southern Lithuania live there since the 1300s.

They are the indigenous people in that land since the Polish-Lithuanian Union in 1385. They were part of the Polish-Lithuanian state.

America was never the same state as Poland. On the other hand, Lithuania used to be the same state. It was also Polish state.

The original document of the Union of Krewo from 1385 says:

Demum etiam Jagalo dux saepedictus promittit terras suas Litvaniae et Rusiae coronae regni Poloniae perpetuo applicare.

In short - Lithuanian Duke Jogaila promised to incorporate Lithuania to Poland forever (perpetuo applicare).

HannibalBarka said:
They are still lithuanian and must follow lithuanian law.

Just like Crimeans "must" follow Ukrainian law! :lol: There is the rule of self-determination codified in international law, my friend!

And you should stop persecuting the Basque people in South-Western France. Not mentioning persecutions of the Romani people in France.

The Bretons perhaps also don't want to live under French occupation.

HannibalBarka said:
when I visited Vilnuis last feb, I was surprised to see almost no trace visible about it "jewish" heritage, it sounded really weird.

Exactly - and you know why you didn't hear anything about this ??? Because Lithuanian Fascists are not just Anti-Polish, but also Anti-Semitic.

By the way - majority of Jews from Wilno were Polish-speaking people, just like local Polish Christians. Jews were part of Polish culture.

The same was true for Jews from Lwów - they were also mostly Polish-speaking, as can be seen in Austrian population censuses.

Recently Russian-speaking Ukrainians and Russian-speaking Jews from Crimea voted to join Russia. They are culturally Russian.

Not only Crimea. For example Odessa is a city in which Russians and Russian-speaking Jews have been majority.
 
Learned many new things about my country after reading this thread. I strongly recommend you to visit Lithuania and spend few days in Vilnius region observing 'tensions' between Polish and Lithuanian speakers.

Regarding hardcore skinhead fascists/nazis, yes, there are some. Just like in any other country. This year's "Lithuania for Lithuanians" mustered around 2500 people, where visually hardcore skinhead nazis were a minority. That, as you understand, is a very small number.

Regarding the 200 000 Polish minority, I and most of the Lithuanians consider them as brothers, our fellow Lithuanian citizens. Again, please visit our country, which will help you shape the opinion yourself, not being shaped by others, who might interested in doing that.

To let you know, Samogitia is only 1 of 5 etnographical regions (other 4 are Upper Lithuania, Dzukija, Suvalkija and Lithuania Minor) in Lithuania, thus Samogitia shouldn't be associated as a whole Lithuania (nowadays and in the past). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samogitia
 
Today Poles are still majority in the Vilno Region, but no longer in the city of Vilno itself. This is because majority of Poles from the city of Vilno itself were forcibly deported to Poland after 1945 or emigrated to Poland since then.

For example currently one of the oldest Polish women is a 113 years old woman from Szczecin (she saw the Tsar!):

She lives in Szczecin nowadays, but she was born in 1901 at the outskirts of Vilno and before WW2 she lived in Vilno:

She came from Lithuania to Poland in 1957, as part of the so called "Second Repatriation of 1955-1959":

"Second Repatriation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Poles_(1955–59)


Link to video.

In case of Poles from villages and smaller towns near Vilno, larger percent of them stayed in Lithuania.

This is why today Poles are still majority in the Vilno Region, but no longer in the city of Vilno itself.

Regarding the 200 000 Polish minority, I and most of the Lithuanians consider them as brothers.

Then why did you forcibly deport 250,000 of "your brothers" from Lithuania in years 1945 - 1957 ???

Including Mrs Łucja Sobolewska from the video above, who is now 113 years old ???
 
Approximately 180,000 Poles were forcibly deported from Lithuania in years 1945 - 1947 (First Repatriation) - including 90,000 from Vilno - and further ca. 70,000 Poles were deported from Lithuania in years 1955 - 1957 (Second Repatriation).

In total some 250,000 Poles were deported from Lithuania during 1st and 2nd repatriations.

According to 1959 official Soviet census, there were 230,000 Poles in Lithuania.

So more than 50% of all Poles were deported from Lithuania after WW2.

Among those forcibly deported were intellectual elites and most of urban citizens (people with "hard Polish" identity).

230,000 who were left were mostly rural people. As "softer Poles", they were considered to be easy to Lithuanize.

Today Polish minority in Lithuania still numbers around 250,000 people. Apparently Lithuanization mostly failed.


====================================

Number of Poles and Lithuanians in the city of Vilno from 1897 to 2011:

1) LITHUANIANS:

1897 census - 2,0% (3,131 Lithuanians out of 154,532 total population)
1916 census - 2,6% (3,699 Lithuanians out of 140,890)
1917 census - 2,1% (2,909 Lithuanians out of 138,787)
1931 census - 0,8% (1,579 Lithuanians out of 195,021)

1959 census - 33,6% (79,400 Lithuanians out of 236,100)
2001 census - 57,5% (318,510 Lithuanians out of 553,904)
2011 census - 63,2% (331,500 Lithuanians out of 524,566)

2) POLES:

1897 census - unreliable data (many Poles were counted as "Russians" in this census)

1910 census - 97,800 Poles (plus 75,500 Jews, of whom many Polish-speaking ones)
1916 census - 70,629 Poles (plus 61,265 Jews, of whom many Polish-speaking)
1917 census - 74,466 Poles (plus 57,516 Jews, of whom many Polish-speaking)
1923 census - 100,830 Poles (plus 55,437 Jews, of whom many Polish-speaking)
1931 census - 128,628 Poles (plus 54,606 Jews, of whom many Polish-speaking)

1959 census - 47,200 Poles (plus 16,400 Jews)
2001 census - 104,446 Poles (plus 2,770 Jews)
2011 census - 85,816 Poles (no Jews reported)
 
Remind me, when I become the supreme leader of Europe, to establish gulags for crazy nationalists who like to constantly judge people based on 60 years old history and rehash tensions :mischief:
 
Remind me, when I become the supreme leader of Europe, to establish gulags for crazy nationalists who like to constantly judge people based on 60 years old history and rehash tensions :mischief:

No no Winner! Of course the people of Lithuania should be held collectively accountable for actions by the Soviet Union from before most of them had reached adulthood.
 
Never equate the Old World with the New World. This is like two different planets or like a palace vs. a skyscrapper. And by the way, I don't think that Irish-Americans speak Irish, while Poles in what is now Lithuania speak Polish.

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According to a recent survey, 15% of people in Poland (ca. 6 million) declare having ancestors who lived in what is now Ukraine, Belarus or Lithuania before WW2. Obviously many of them have family members who still live in Belarus and Lithuania (Ukraine has been more thoroughly cleansed from Poles, today it most probably has a smaller Polish minority).
 
And many Germans have ancestors who lived in what is present-day Poland. I guess the Germans need to re-invade Poland, to apply your way of thinking.

This whole nationalism-driven reminiscing over who did what to whom decades and centuries ago is UTTERLY POINTLESS. It's a WASTE OF TIME that is moreover completely DIVISIVE and creates stupid feelings in people which only make life worse. If you want to indulge in all that, fine, but don't do it in public. I can't even quantify how much better off Europe would be if all people stirring such sentiments just disappeared.
 
And many Germans have ancestors who lived in what is present-day Poland.

But these Germans at least don't have families here, because nearly all Germans were deported from Poland.

And in case of Poles in former Eastern Poland, the most nasty thing possible was done to them - 60% were forcibly deported, and 40% were forced to stay. Families were cut in half and separated from each other. Half of Eastern Poles were chosen to become objects of forced Sovietization, forced Ukrainization, forced Belarusification and forced Lithuanization. While the remaining >50% were judged as being "too Polish" to be "De-Polonized", and thus were forcibly deported to Poland.

They separated families in half, and now they want to keep them in separation by claiming that Poles in Lithuania are "Polonized Lithuanians", while those in Poland are "True Poles". No matter, that these people are frequently relatives, originating from the same families! This is more tragic than deportation of everyone, this is tragic on a family level...
 
So what? What's your point? And who cares?

Last I checked, there is the Schengen Zone and people can travel inside most of the EU freely and visit whomever they want. I'd like to stress that if we listened to the nationalists, all European countries would still have walls and barbed wires on their borders.
 
So wait, you seriously think its reasonable to judge the attitudes of an entire nation based upon what it did as a SSR? That's about as logical as suggesting what a country did as an occupied Nazi puppet state just PROVES they hate jews.
 
So wait, you seriously think its reasonable to judge the attitudes of an entire nation based upon what it did as a SSR? That's about as logical as suggesting what a country did as an occupied Nazi puppet state just PROVES they hate jews.

Belgium lopped off a bunch of people's hands way back, so clearly we need to protect both the Dutch and Africans living there from their government.
I brought pitchforks.
 
I mean its silly enough to judge a country off what it did historically as an independent country, even sillier to judge its actions as an occupied country because at that point its not even its own will.
 
Belgium lopped off a bunch of people's hands way back, so clearly we need to protect both the Dutch and Africans living there from their government.
I brought pitchforks.

They're not even ashamed of celebrating that history with golden statues. I'd advocate a Dutch annexation but then that country has a suspect past too.
 
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