Eurocentrism to the Max!!! What we gonna do?

[Omega124]

Maybe that's because it's a big market for them, just like Poland?

Brazil, for lack of less-blunt language, does not stack in any way to accomplishments of not-included civs like Ottomans, Persia, or Mongols. Brazil is not a military superpower for its time period, its not an economic superpower for its time period, its culture has existed for a shorter time period than even America, etc, etc (and, again, America can back up its newness by being indisputably the most influential culture/superpower on planet Earth since the end of WW2. It has made its mark on world history in ways Brazil simply just hasn't yet. Not saying they never will, but until that day has come it will always be a suspect decision for me). It, the Huns, and Venice just have always felt out of place compared to the other civ 5 civs

Also, Korea is a HUGE market for 2K, yet there's no Korean civ? It was such an obvious decision given the favoritism they showed Korea in Civ Rev 2/BE that I was shocked when Sejong wasn't on the leader poster board. Then again, they probably realized they could sell Korea as a DLC again and make money off of their nationalism again.

 

[Haig]

Civ series are still LESS eurocentric than Paradox or Total War games.

P.S. And so what about civs in vanilla if we get a good game (as it looks like).

 

[anandus]

P.S. And so what about civs in vanilla if we get a good game (as it looks like).

But we need something to complain about!
And as long as a polar bear civ isn't in we will!

 

[Haggbart]

The list of civs and leaders looks great so far, nothing to complain about.

 

[ehecatzin]

Brazil, for lack of less-blunt language, does not stack in any way to accomplishments of not-included civs like Ottomans, Persia, or Mongols. Brazil is not a military superpower for its time period, its not an economic superpower for its time period, its culture has existed for a shorter time period than even America, etc, etc (and, again, America can back up its newness by being indisputably the most influential culture/superpower on planet Earth since the end of WW2. It has made its mark on world history in ways Brazil simply just hasn't yet. Not saying they never will, but until that day has come it will always be a suspect decision for me). It, the Huns, and Venice just have always felt out of place compared to the other civ 5 civs

Also, Korea is a HUGE market for 2K, yet there's no Korean civ? It was such an obvious decision given the favoritism they showed Korea in Civ Rev 2/BE that I was shocked when Sejong wasn't on the leader poster board. Then again, they probably realized they could sell Korea as a DLC again and make money off of their nationalism again.

TSL vanilla considerations and the fact the devs like it, Brazil , Aztecs and America fill North America, mesoamerica and south america. Korea will surelly make it down the road anyway, so will the Mayans, Incas, and Iroquois for example.

 

[j51]

But we need something to complain about!
And as long as a polar bear civ isn't in we will!

The list of civs and leaders looks great so far, nothing to complain about.

Thanks for the constructive posts!

Yeah, the game looks great. But the roster feels empty right now. I'm not going to pre-order unless I know some of the more glaring missing civs are coming down the pipe before the 90 day Aztec hostage situation expires.

 

[Haggbart]

But we need something to complain about!
And as long as a polar bear civ isn't in we will!

Surely if polarbears were in, within 10 minutes there would be a thread about how racist it was not to include the grizzly instead.

 

[Omega124]

Civ series are still LESS eurocentric than Paradox or Total War games.

P.S. And so what about civs in vanilla if we get a good game (as it looks like).

Total War yes. Paradox, though, feels like they treat non-western civilization with more dignity than civ does (As long as you aren't Aztec or Chinese, although that's a whole different topic with a completely different game series)

And its important because civilization effects a lot of people's exposure to history that otherwise don't care about it that much. That list of people doesn't include that many people on this website; we're all fanatics and likely have a love of history due to it. I refer to the people who enjoy this series very casually, probably never took a history class past freshman year of college, and couldn't care less about which year Byzantium fell to the Ottomans. It's those kind of people that Civilization could either be a great educational tool to teach people the diversity of this planet and its various cultures, or reinforce current-standing biases that only white history and white civilization matters, and that native cultures only matter insofar in their relation to European history.

And they chose the latter in a way that this series simply just never has before. That is the issue,

 

[sukritact]

Paradox, though, feels like they treat non-western civilization with more dignity than civ does

And personally for me they do the courtesy of fixing this issue continuously in free patches.

Civ doesn't have that luxury. Fixing this will likely require an XP or DLC.

 

[Civciv5]

Let's see, how many European civs do we got?
1.England
2.France
3.Spain
4.Germany
5.Poland
6.Rome
7.Greece
8.Russia
9.United States (geographically in America, but very European)
10.Brazil (same as above)
So yes that's like 10 of the 20-something civs. I'd definitely call it Eurocentrism. Also, we have no evidence there is will be a Southeast Asian civ, so geographical representation/balance is already thrown out of the window.

 

[ehecatzin]

Omega, I think you may be reading a bit too much into the vanilla civ list. I'ts not like its final and not one more civ will ever be added to civ6.

 

[Turquoiside]

Civ series are still LESS eurocentric than Paradox or Total War games.

P.S. And so what about civs in vanilla if we get a good game (as it looks like).

Eh.
At least you can actually play the rest of the world in EU3/4. Depends on whether you think being Europe's plaything is less attention than not existing at all...

 

[DemonMaster]

Europe have had a lot of influence in the world. That's how it is.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Omega, I think you may be reading a bit too much into the vanilla civ list. I'ts not like its final and not one more civ will ever be added to civ6.

We're a little over two months till release. It's pretty much final at this point save for adjustments like the ones we saw for Teddy.

 

[ehecatzin]

We're a little over two months till release. It's pretty much final at this point.

I meant dlc and expansions, I should have been clearer.

 

[Haggbart]

Thanks for the constructive posts!

Yeah, the game looks great. But the roster feels empty right now. I'm not going to pre-order unless I know some of the more glaring missing civs are coming down the pipe before the 90 day Aztec hostage situation expires.

But most people don't play the game to have a geografic representation of civs. Some people do care if their civ is in, especially causual gamers, but I think for most people the quality of the game is above all.

As long as the bonuses in the game are interesting I couldn't care less if civ X og Y are chosen. And I find it weird that you can say that the game looks great, but you will not buy iy because the wrong countries are represented.

Of course you're entitled your opinion, but to me it's like complaining on the color palette or other things that might be annoying, but has no real impact on the enjoyment of the game itself.

 

[shyPiano]

There are 12 non-euro civs. What's the problem?

Non-euro:
1. Egypt
2. India
3. Sumeria
4. Japan
5. Aztecs
6. Kongo
7. Brazil
8. Russia (okay, this is a toss-up)
9. China
10. Arabia
11. America
12. Scythia

Euro:
1. France
2. Germany
3. Sparta
4. Norway
5. Athens
6. Spain
7. England
8. Rome

The problem, I feel, is that the world is not divided into "Europe" and "Not Europe".

Let's try making that list make a bit more sense:

Africa:

1. Egypt
2. Kongo

America:

1. America
2. Aztec
3. Brazil

Asia:

1. Arabia
2. China
3. India
4. Japan
5. Scythia
6. Sumeria

Europe:

1. England
2. France
3. Germany
4. Greece
5. Norse
6. Poland
7. Rome
8. Russia
9. Spain

And all other continents are not represented at all.

And this is not taking into consideration sub continents - if we further divide, say, Asia into [Middle East, Far East, Indian, South East Asia], America into [North America, South America], and Europe into [Western Europe, Eastern Europe], then we see even more of a concentration over Western Europe. There are NO South East Asian civilization, there is ONE Native American civilization, there is there is ONE South American civilization, there is ONE Sub-saharan civilization, and so on and so forth.

And while I'm not enraged or anything, I do think it's a shame that entire parts of the world were completely neglected or given only one token civilization in favor of more European civilizations.
Where's the great kingdoms of South East Africa like the Khmer, Sukhothai/Siam, Majahapit/Indonesia, Vietnam, etc...?
Where's the great kingdoms of Africa like the Mali, the Songhai, the Kilwa, Ethiopia, heck even Carthage and Morocco?
Where's Persia? The Ottomans? Babylon? Mongolia? The Inca? The Sioux? The Iroquois?

I mean, look at the list again: Asia, the largest continent, and also the most populated one, has 2/3 the number of civilizations as Europe, a continent 12% its size!

I'm sure later expansions and DLC will offer more variety, but Civilization IV's base game has a SEVERE lack of variety in its civilizations.
But at least there isn't any Tamar of Georgia!

 

[Civciv5]

Europe have had a lot of influence in the world. That's how it is

I'm sure the great Brazilian Empire has achieved so much more than the puny Persian civilization or little Southeast Asian kingdoms...

 

[Omega124]

And personally for me they do the courtesy of fixing this issue continuously in free patches.

Civ doesn't have that luxury. Fixing this will likely require an XP or DLC.

Nah, Paradox gatewalls a lot of their own content with DLC expansions too, especially in CKII (couldn't even /play/ as non-Christians without relevant DLCs for each religion). Like for example, the upcoming EUIV patch fixes both the Ottoman's government and Coptic faith, but only if you buy the DLC. Otherwise the features are disabled.

Let's see, how many European civs do we got?
1.England
2.France
3.Spain
4.Germany
5.Poland
6.Rome
7.Greece
8.Russia
9.United States (geographically in America, but very European)
10.Brazil (same as above)
So yes that's like 10 of the 20-something civs. I'd definitely call it Eurocentrism. Also, we have no evidence there is will be a Southeast Asian civ, so geographical representation/balance is already thrown out of the window.

And Sumeria, and likely Sparta too. And Scythia was the most euro-centric steppe culture they could have picked, and Kongo the most euro-centric subsaharian civilization they could have picked.

 

[WiseGreen]

Gandhi leading India as one country is still, I think, the thing that most irks me right now. More African, Asian and Native American civs can (and will) be added in future expansions, but we'll probably have to wait for Cuv7 to see Vijayanagar and/or Mughals.