Eurocentrism to the Max!!! What we gonna do?

[Civciv5]

Sumeria is not European at all, it's a very ancient culture. I'm sure about Scythia and Kongo though.

Gandhi leading India as one country is still, I think, the thing that most irks me right now.

Tell me about it!

 

[ehecatzin]

Gandhi leading India as one country is still, I think, the thing that most irks me right now. More African, Asian and Native American civs can (and will) be added in future expansions, but we'll probably have to wait for Cuv7 to see Vijayanagar and/or Mughals.

If the multiple leaders feature turns out to be correct, we may get a second leader for India that gives it a diferent spin. (hopefuly because I'm tired of Ghandi)

 

[sukritact]

Nah, Paradox gatewalls a lot of their own content with DLC expansions too, especially in CKII (couldn't even /play/ as non-Christians without relevant DLCs for each religion). Like for example, the upcoming EUIV patch fixes both the Ottoman's government and Coptic faith, but only if you buy the DLC. Otherwise the features are disabled.

Ah, I see.

I mainly play EU4 and am personally am VERY happy that they've slowly fleshed out the National Ideas for so many of the smaller and non-european nations. Lanna, Sukhothai and Ayutthaya all have their own unique ideas, as do a lot of African states AFAIK. It was more this that I was referring to.

 

[DeutschDachs]

I generally roll my eyes at charges of Eurocentrism but I mean if you split Greece into Athens and Sparta rather than digging for a new region or culture to be represented... it is a mite overbearing

 

[Omega124]

Sumeria is not European at all, it's a very ancient culture. I'm sure about Scythia and Kongo though.

Not geographically European. But it is the first western civ.

 

[Ryuu Falconwing]

Not geographically European. But it is the first western civ.

That's stretching it a bit, don't you think?

 

[Morningcalm]

Many who disagree that the civ list is Eurocentric are forgetting that one huge component of why the base game list is Eurocentric is that entire vast regions have barely any representatives. Mesoamericans have the Aztecs as reps, the Africans have Kongo (and Egypt, if you consider that Africa vs. Middle-eastern), Asia has India, China and Japan (arguably Scythia), and South America has...Brazil, which is basically a European civ frankly. They even had European music in Civ V. America isn't European per se--but the leader list looks whiter than the new Mount Everest wonder.

The only civ with 2 leaders is Greece, a European civ.

It's not bad to have Caucasians per se, except when they come in the game at the expense of other regions which hold a far larger proportion of the human population.

Diversity is a cherished value, and not just for the sake of political correctness, but for the sake of variety. It's a shame the base game lacks so much diversity where they really could have been adventurous.

 

[cpm4001]

But we need something to complain about!
And as long as a polar bear civ isn't in we will!

Excuse me?! Are you not aware of the great contributions Jan Mayen made to civilization? Honestly you evil oppressive colonizers continue to go great lengths to wipe the contributions made to world history by we Jan Mayeners, who were completely peaceful at all times, invented everything, and never did anything bad or in any way against contemporary values (certainly not eating seals, rare fish, or the occasional human.)

/Sarcasm

Serious response:

More non-Western-European Civs are almost certainly incoming. OUTRAGE is pointless. Is it disappointing Ethiopia, the Khmer, the Iroquois, Mali, and the Inca aren't (or at least don't seem to be) in the base game? Yeah. Will they or some equivalents be in soon enough? Also yes.

 

[sukritact]

Not geographically European. But it is the first western civ.

Indeed. They pop up along with Egypt when you study the history of western art for example.

 

[Metecury]

I see no problem with having European civs. More civs will come with expansions, if you cannot bear having Europeans in your games I assume you can avoid buying the game until the dlcs arrive. I'm quite sick and tired of the at European circkejerk around here.

 

[Civciv5]

Not geographically European. But it is the first western civ.

That's a ludicrous claim! Sumeria is an ancient Mesopotamian civ that can not really be classified as Western because it's culture was very different. I don't how they're similar except for maybe some laws and government the Europeans got from them.

Indeed. They pop up along with Egypt when you study the history of western art for example.

Egypt is not really European either, it is a native African civilization with various European/Middle-Eastern influences blended in in later time periods.

 

[Siptah]

Not geographically European. But it is the first western civ.

That's a strange claim. Just because it was a heavy influence. But it was that on Persia, too. And on numerous others. Does that make them western? I really would suggest a good book on old oriental cultures. They are quite different from the mediterranean civilizations. Counting Egypt as a western country is the same, it has been rather a rather different society, without any urbanization and a completely different social structure until greek times. It heavily influenced the west, but that's not being western.

 

[WiseGreen]

If the multiple leaders feature turns out to be correct, we may get a second leader for India that gives it a diferent spin. (hopefuly because I'm tired of Ghandi)

Hear hear. I hope we get at least Ashoka and/or Babur in a future expansion/DLC - if the multiple leaders thing is real, that is.

That's a strange claim. Just because it was a heavy influence. But it was that on Persia, too. And on numerous others. Does that make them western? I really would suggest a good book on old oriental cultures. They are quite different from the mediterranean civilizations. Counting Egypt as a western country is the same, it has been rather a rather different society, without any urbanization and a completely different social structure until greek times. It heavily influenced the west, but that's not being western.

If you count ancient Greece as Western/European, there's at least a case to be made that Egypt under a Ptolomaic rule could also be considered the same. It's very hard to trace hard East/West lines in the Mediterranean before the fall of the Roman Empire and/or the rise of Islam, I think.

 

[Omega124]

That's stretching it a bit, don't you think?

No, not at all.

There's only six places where "civilization" erupted independently according to modern historians. Mesopotamia, Egypt, Indus River Valley, China, Mesoamerica, and the Andes. All other cultures only became sedentary and settled in cities due to contact with the other cradles. For Greece (and therefore the modern western world), it was Mesopotmian cradle that has extensive contact with the predecessors of what we'd call Classical Greece, and the Near East interacted the Greeks (and later vice versa with the post-Hellenistic world) for thousands of years uninterrupted minus a brief interlude when the Persians took over the Neo-Babylonians. You can even see some traces of the ancient middle east in modern western culture: modern Europe today follows predominately a religion that started in the Levant, not in Europe proper. Our alphabet is ultimately derived from the Phoenicians, who also existed in the middle east. The idea that Sumer is western is not controversial by historians today.

The Arab conquests in the 600s is what divorced the Middle East from the cultural ties it once had to Europe. The Bedouin Arabs are ultimately more linked to the Egytian cradle (Arab is an Afro-semetic language, much like ancient Egyptian), and to this day the Middle East is non-western as it is dominated by either Arabs or Iranians (which are influenced by the Indus Valley cradle). Some of the ancient cultures, like Assyrians, do exist as minorities, and they really have nothing culturally in common with Arabs.

 

[Turquoiside]

I see no problem with having European civs. More civs will come with expansions, if you cannot bear having Europeans in your games I assume you can avoid buying the game until the dlcs arrive. I'm quite sick and tired of the at European circkejerk around here.

Yes, because this is all about our deep-seated hatred of Europe. Talk about a straw man. Literally no one is complaining about there being European civs in Civilization.

Besides, you don't have to have some weird prejudice against Europe to think the choices they've made are lame too.
Netherlands?
Austria?
Byzantines Or how about a Balkan (Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.) civilization, or even finally putting in a Jewish civilization? But no. Instead we get things like Norway and Brazil. Everyone should feel underwhelmed.

 

[Ryika]

Africa:

1. Egypt
2. Kongo

America:

1. America
2. Aztec
3. Brazil

Asia:

1. Arabia
2. China
3. India
4. Japan
5. Scythia
6. Sumeria

Europe:

1. England
2. France
3. Germany
4. Greece
5. Norse
6. Poland
7. Rome
8. Russia
9. Spain

Looks like they choose to add Civs by cultural relevancy of their continent in today's day and age (Well, except for America of course).

I like it.

 

[turingmachine]

But it's not just the fact that there are a lot of European civs.

Did two of them (Greece & Spain) really need a second leader before adding more non-European civs?

 

[Depravo]

And Scythia was the most euro-centric steppe culture they could have picked....

Hey, they could have used the Ostrogoths.

 

[sukritact]

Looks like they choose to add Civs by cultural relevancy of their continent in today's day and age.

I like it.

SEA has a population of slightly less than Europe.

We don't have a civ. Europe has how many?

 

[ehecatzin]

Did two of them (Greece & Spain) really need a second leader before adding more non-European civs?

Well, see it this way, they obviously want to sell us a bunch of DLC, be it extra civs or multiple leaders bundled with a scenario /map pack.

I makes sense for them to give the first multiple leaders to a popular civ as a test run, in this case, Pericles and Gorgo. IF it is well recieved, then you can go ahead and push said dlc's harder between expansions.

Athens vs Sparta multiple leader dlc would probably sell better than a multiple leader China one for example . Should they sell well we could get more variations on a lot more civs, not just european ones.