European thread

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Ok forgive my ignorance concerning the economics. Unlike some people on this forum I do not pretend to be an expert in everything. Surely though even if the Uk was not part of the EU we would still benfit from free trade because we are too valiable to other countries?

Look above, I already answered this.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
To be quite honest Hamlet I would rather see our cash going into the NHS, public transport and the MOD than throwing it all away to the Spanish so they can make some more roads. Im not talking about forging a utopia and I think you know that.

Well then, you should just say that in future. You either support some degree of state contribution to international projects and aid, or you don't on the basis that it shouldn't be spent on them. But you can't say 'We should sort out our own problems first', because it's just not an actual argument.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Could someone please explain to me the score with this fishing boundaries business. Why are the Spanish fishing in our waters? Are we to blame for depleted stocks around their shores?

I believe something like 12 miles around the respective shorelines is national waters and can only be fished by trawlers of that nation, well, trawlers registered of that nation, at least. Everything else is common waters and may be fished by everyone.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Is that not largely the fault of the government for not getting the information about the euro across to the pupblic?

There is general ignorance about all areas of government and politics. That is partly the government's/the systems' fault, however it is also the public's fault to a greater degree than they would like to readily admit.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
What are the benefits of a single european currency?

Finally is it possible that europe could amalgamate into one powerful trading nation?

Just what is it that is keeping the UK from accepting the euro anyway?

1. The potential benefits for Britian are far fewer than the potential costs.

2. Possible but very unlikely, despite the wishes of some of the 'enlightened' European political masters.

3. Partly the fact that it will not work in its present form, and partly because despite what many have said, we are not just another European country - we are different from the European economies in many, many ways.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

we have such a strong link with america which is pulling us away from europe especially france

 

[Pillager]

In general, yes, we are much more closely tied to the USA than continental Europe, of which France is in some ways the most virulently anti-US. This is true culturally and politically, but also, importantly in this discussion, economically.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Would it not be best to reforge the ties that we have to europe? Would it be fair to say that Britain is being stretched both ways? Ultimately we will have to choose whether to bond closer with the US or with europe. Given the different political attitudes of each side we can't keep staying inbetween.

Originally posted by Hamlet
There is general ignorance about all areas of government and politics. That is partly the government's/the systems' fault, however it is also the public's fault to a greater degree than they would like to readily admit.

The public have a responsability to this country yet it can be hard for many to fit politics into their day to day life. Not everyone has plenty of free time to go and read up or debate on the issues.
Alot of people I know are content to just let things run their course unconcerned about the future. I believe we all have an obligation to our country. The newspapers don't help very much with their bias. So it really does fall on the government to regenerate intrest in politics. I think it would be a good idea to incorparte political studies into senior school. We have sex education why should we not have political education? What would you suggest?

Some people have been talking about getting rid of farming subsidies but how will the financial gap created by this action be filled? What with the regulations of the EU concerning farming it is hard enough on them with the existing subsidies. Even now they have to look to other sources to supplement the income. The production limits are causing alot of the problems. Can someone explain to me what these limits exsist for?

Furthermore could someone explain to me the major differances between the British economy and the european economy. I am intrested in learning more about what is going on right now. Any help would be appreciated as it would give me greater insight into this discussion.

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by yaroslav

(...)

He knew that he was going to be elected. He promise it because he think that he'll get more seats on parlament with that
In fact, Aznar title is 'President of the Governement'. Is a Spanish trend to call 'President of the Governement' to what others countries call Prime minister. But, yes, you have reason: we've King (Sad. I love republic..) and Aznar is Prime minister. Foreign press call him prime minister. It's my fault, but it's a trend so embebed...

(...)

Our bugdet is without deficit, but with much , much less investment, and less direct taxes but more indirect taxes. That's what you can expect from a rigth governement Fortunately enough, our economy is growing very, very fast. I'm also finish my degree (Telecommunications Engineering) on this year, so it's also worst time for me. But Telecommunications on Spain have no unemployement problem on this years...

[Final note: Sorry for deleting some smileys, but CfC gets mad with so many smilies...]

Just to say thank you for that president explanation (prime minister was better so that youcouldhave a Republic easier, like we do )
I'm a bit jealous about your fast growing, but it's fine
Yeah, I already have deleted some smileys before. I know that limit too much

 

[Ancient Grudge]

have u heard they are trying to rename the E.U the united states of Europe and guess whos idea this was a former french presidnets ofcourse!

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Rest assured that the idea of naming europe as the United States of Europe is an idea that will likely never leave the paper its printed on. I don't find it likely that any of the member country representitives would agree to such a name. However the fact that people in the european convention, in particular Valery Giscard d'Estaing, are talking about such areas of the future for the union shows promise.

 

[MrPresident]

have u heard they are trying to rename the E.U the united states of Europe

Nice name but it will never be done. European Union is a good name, why change it?

Ultimately we will have to choose whether to bond closer with the US or with europe.

Why?

The newspapers don't help very much with their bias.

That is why they help. You can get the Guardian and the Daily Mail and see both extremes at the same time.

We have sex education why should we not have political education? What would you suggest?

I completely agree. I think there are already plans for some sort of citizenship classes which would include stuff like how our political system works etc.

Some people have been talking about getting rid of farming subsidies but how will the financial gap created by this action be filled?

What do you mean financial gap? If we get rid of farm subsidies we will have lots of money left over for public services or tax cuts (depending on your political point of view).

1. The potential benefits for Britian are far fewer than the potential costs.

This kind of statement is purely a judgement call. It is not like there is a set number of benefits and costs and you can add them up to see which has more. You have to weight those benefits/costs based upon their importance and this is where the judgement call comes in. If you are a small business you will put more weight on the loss of interest rate control. If you are an exporter you will put more weight on the no transaction costs. If you are a tourists you will put more weight on the ease of use and so on. That is why you can't say the above statement without also saying in my opinion or something similar.

Why not help me out rather than put me down.

I find it funnier.

I would rather not bicker about such matters with a fellow Brit.

What matters would you like to bicker about?

Have you ever been on an NHS waiting list?

Yes and I don't know what all the complaining is about. I was seen very quickly.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Originally posted by MrPresident
What do you mean financial gap? If we get rid of farm subsidies we will have lots of money left over for public services or tax cuts (depending on your political point of view).

I mean what anout the farmers? How are they going to be able to run their farms without the aid?

Originally posted by MrPresident
What matters would you like to bicker about?

Oh lets not bicker here why don't we meet up sometime and see if you are still so rude to people in front of thier face.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Yes and I don't know what all the complaining is about. I was seen very quickly.

Consider yourself lucky. Or prehaps they give priority to people with a dick stuck up their arse.

 

[MrPresident]

I mean what anout the farmers? How are they going to be able to run their farms without the aid?

They won't. That is the point. We have too many inefficient farmers in the UK (and especially in France) which require government money to keep going. These farmers really should not be farming. It may be a painful policy to implement but it is a neccessary one.

Oh lets not bicker here why don't we meet up sometime and see if you are still so rude to people in front of thier face.

Are you calling me out? And I wasn't being rude I was using word play on what you said for humorous effect. It is called, "having a sense of humour". (okay now I'm being rude)

Consider yourself lucky. Or prehaps they give priority to people with a dick stuck up their arse.

Perhaps you should read the forum rules.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Your attitude does not roll well with me. I wonder if you are so cocky to people when they are in front of you. I doubt it though. Being a student you probably are locked up somewhere in your own little world.

Yes I am calling you out. I want to see you when you talk down to me. Im sure that an inbetween point can be arranged from our respective areas. I would be more than happy to discuss the european prediciment over a pint. Maybe you would not be so disresectful. Its a shame that people who do what I do can't choose who they defend.

Anyway I have a life to lead and as such cannot afford the luxury of sitting on my arse all day.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Your attitude does not roll well with me. I wonder if you are so cocky to people when they are in front of you. I doubt it though. Being a student you probably are locked up somewhere in your own little world.

Yes I am calling you out. I want to see you when you talk down to me. Im sure that an inbetween point can be arranged from our respective areas. I would be more than happy to discuss the european prediciment over a pint. Maybe you would not be so disresectful. Its a shame that people who do what I do can't choose who they defend.

Anyway I have a life to lead and as such cannot afford the luxury of sitting on my arse all day.

Hey, steady on. If you have a problem with another poster's attitude, send him a PM, or PM a moderator. Do not bring it up in the forum, nor use gratuitous insults, whatever views you have about him.

 

[Pillager]

dp

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Pillager
In general, yes, we are much more closely tied to the USA than continental Europe,

It's a balance between the two, which is important and must be preserved. We are no use to either party is we sway one way or the other. We must preserve the balace.

Originally posted by Pillager
of which France is in some ways the most virulently anti-US.

France has been one of the most right-wing countries with regards to foreign policy (Probably a case for many other areas, also) from WW2 in Europe. I t has rountinely flattened quite a few European iniatives. Probably much more so than The UK. De Gualle being a predominant influence of course. I don't think that classifies it as 'anti-US', though.

Originally posted by Pillager
This is true culturally

Culturally, there is little difference to say one way or the other.

Originally posted by Pillager
and politically,

How so? To me our political system would seem to have much more in common with Europe, it being a parliamentary democracy and all..

Originally posted by Pillager
but also, importantly in this discussion, economically.

How economically? The UK's trade does not rely upon The US. Even North America is fairly small when compared to the amount of trade that is conducted with Europe. I believe it's something like 14% with The US, 56% with Europe.

On the other side, The UK is tied to the US in just the same way that every other country is via the global economy - but that is an irrelevance to your point.

The only economically sensible thing is to promote economic ties with Europe, regardless of whatever you think of what the political relationships should be. Anything else is formed from a ideological delusion.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Ultimately we will have to choose whether to bond closer with the US or with europe.

The US doesn't want us to 'bond' with them. Every US administration since the second world war has been pressing for European intergration, and with that, UK intergration with Europe. The idea that we could ever be better off ditching Europe completely and running straight to The US has only been propogated by far-right Britons and an extemely select amount of American right-wingers, both of which don't have a strong grasp on international realities, or at least chose to ignore them.

It's a false decision. We can be close to both without putting either relationship under threat.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
The public have a responsability to this country yet it can be hard for many to fit politics into their day to day life. Not everyone has plenty of free time to go and read up or debate on the issues.

I take some objection at this. Studies show that the most politically invovled sections of the populace are, frankly middle class professionals. Now, these people surely have the least amount of time on their hands to be involved in politics , yet they do, so why can't everyone else be?

To be honest, I do respect the people who chose to be a sort of 'conscienscious objector' through a senisble, intelligent argument to the political system, but I think a large reason for disengagement is simple laziness, intellectual or otherwise.

Materialism has a lot to answer for, if you ask me.

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
I think it would be a good idea to incorparte political studies into senior school.

America has these sorts of things and look at how low turnout is there.....

Originally posted by Ancient Grudge
have u heard they are trying to rename the E.U the united states of Europe

Tabloid inspired non-fact.

Originally posted by Ancient Grudge
and guess whos idea this was a former french presidnets ofcourse!

And the significance of that is....?


Oh and on the subsidies thing, yes, some farmers should perish from the industry. It is natural. These farms will then be absorbed into bigger, larger, more profitable farms. This has been a process that has been going on right across Europe since WW2, and subsidies are just a block to the natural course of things.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by MrPresident
They won't. That is the point. We have too many inefficient farmers in the UK (and especially in France) which require government money to keep going. These farmers really should not be farming. It may be a painful policy to implement but it is a neccessary one.

Indeed. That's the point about farming subsidies in all of the EU (and other subsidies as well). They are desgined to neglect the "natural" market mechanisms.
Fact is that in our society(s) there's no room for as many farmers as we have. But unfortunately (for the government and therefore us all) they are still there and they still have the right to vote...
That makes people who usually babble alot about the free market turn to subsidies sooner than you can say "reelection".

 

[MrPresident]

That makes people who usually babble alot about the free market turn to subsidies sooner than you can say "reelection".

One of the problems with a democracy. Elected officals (and the public in general) only look short term.

. Being a student you probably are locked up somewhere in your own little world.

I do not think generalisations help anyone.

I wonder if you are so cocky to people when they are in front of you. I doubt it though.

I wonder why you wonder about that. I mean why should you care about whether or not I am as cocky to people face-to-face (I am but that is not the point). It just seems a little strange for someone to spend their time wondering about that.

Its a shame that people who do what I do can't choose who they defend.

I must have missed something. Why can't people who do what you do choose who they defend?

Anyway I have a life to lead and as such cannot afford the luxury of sitting on my arse all day.

My condolences.

 

[Pillager]

@Hamlet, I think you misread my post. My point was that we are closer to the US than is the rest of Europe, not than we are to the rest of Europe. Although, that is a point that could be argued too.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by Pillager
@Hamlet, I think you misread my post. My point was that we are closer to the US than is the rest of Europe, not than we are to the rest of Europe.

Ahhh, yes of course!

Originally posted by Pillager
Although, that is a point that could be argued too.

I sort of argued against that above.