Evidence for creationism, Part 2.

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Either magicfan is deliberately insulting my intelligence by ignoring everything I say, or he's insulting his own intelligence by continuing to post the same unsupported nonsense that's already been torn down, buzzed apart by chainsaws, covered in gasoline, set ablaze, and had 3 dozen Croatian midgets take steaming dumps all over it.
i read every post you have written. the basic argument you present is random mutations + natural slection + deep time = every evidence for creation is invalid. your formula is flawed because mutations cause damage to the DNA. nothing in this world exist that has repair system to fix something that is not broken. i keep bringing up mutations because it only fits the creation model of death and decay after Adam's sin. if you want more info on why Adam's sin mattered. i will be more than happy to provide a quick bible review. each one of your counter arguments depends on mutations providing a gain in information in which the benefit was not the result of a specific environment. if you disagree plz provide one example in where a function was gained and the organism as a whole did not become less fit. also it must be able to be passed on to the offspring.if not, your argument is a hypothetical situation.

My main complaint is that he seems to have no idea what the difference between some and all is, and seems to think some genetic disease means that all mutations must be bad and therefore we are all doomed, and therefore evolution can't exist except to destroy us, therefore we were created by a perfect designer (in spite of crippling, degenerative flaws) out of thin freaking air one day using magic instead of the laws of physics he apparently scribbled on the bathroom wall because this designer is a sadistic nonsense peddler who wishes to inflict his brain-destroying schizophrenia on his own creations by creating piles of evidence that the world was created naturally when all he had to do was wriggle his nose and made the world appear to be old for no reason in order to test our credulity faith.
nobody can prove anything to an absolute. what i can do is provide enough data points. where a conclusion can be drawn that mutations are harmful to the information in the DNA.
looking "old" is an objective defition. in your mind what does a "young" earth look like? if the earth looks old you must have something to compare it against. when God made the earth wouldn't he make a hill,rivers,streams, and mountains.

Honestly when it comes to Creationism I have never seen more people more proud to reject so much supporting evidence, connecting logic, and predictive theory, and embrace so little unsupported unprovable mythological contradictory nonsense as unassailable fact. It seems to revel in its own ignorance, a trait which is displayed whenever someone doesn't bother to read, understand, and respond to common criticisms or responses to one's own argument.
well I'm sorry if i don't see eye to eye with your theory. which states that life came about through random mutations and survival of the fittest selection. which eventually leads someone to believe that life has no real value.
Instead of treating the opposing advocate as an equal automatically, with respect for their intelligence, and waiting patiently for them to actually do what the bleeding thread says and present some evidence that the universe popped into existence in a frame of time not supported by science (i.e. last thursday or 6000 years ago) I am going to summarily declare their entire argument to be utter garbage and their capacity to debate to be nonexistent until proven otherwise.
I've been patient for thousands of posts now and I am growing tired of seeing only one side have to give evidence, respond to posts, understand what is being said, or acknowledge when the same arguments are being repeated over and over without an intelligible response. I am growing increasingly weary of the opposing side not getting really easy to understand concepts like "complexity does not necessitate design" or "lack of 100% proof for a scientific theory does not automatically mean a wizard did it" or that instead of arguing your points, you can pass the buck and ask us to do it for you by saying "well science doesn't have answers for everything therefore God must have done it prove me wrong." but perhaps most insultingly of all not bothering to grasp key concepts like natural selection (not simply random chance) or even bothering to read up on logical fallacies before posting.

ive presented plenty of arguments for design and complexity. once again all your counter arguments depend on random mutations. natural selection only acts on random mutations. its only a secondary force in the theory of evolution.

I honestly would respect religion more if everything that was sound and rational and logical wasn't constantly under assault by it, and those who didn't believe hadn't been treated like pond scum for the past several thousand years.
I'm presenting evidence for creation so you and anyone reading can respect what the Christianity has to offer. i also agree that religions are mostly harmful and people can often look down on others since were are all in a fallen state. i don't put my faith in a man made religion. its a personal relationship with the creator.
 
your formula is flawed because mutations cause damage to the DNA. nothing in this world exist that has repair system to fix something that is not broken.
Okay, I take a rock. I throw it at another rock and it shatters. I lost a rock, but now I have a sharp rock that I can use to make tools or kill someone to sleep with their woman.

Just because something changed doesn't mean it is broken or is any less useful.
 
well I'm sorry if i don't see eye to eye with your theory. which states that life came about through random mutations and survival of the fittest selection. which eventually leads someone to believe that life has no real value.
Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I certainly don't believe that life has no real value simply because I accept prevailing scientific theory. That would not be compatible with believing in a loving God.
 
Okay, I take a rock. I throw it at another rock and it shatters. I lost a rock, but now I have a sharp rock that I can use to make tools or kill someone to sleep with their woman.

Just because something changed doesn't mean it is broken or is any less useful.

This is still a bad comparison, however, because it implies that evolution, and its driving force of natural selection is not random like throwing rocks at one another is. Also rocks don't mate to pass on that sharp shapey shapeness.
 
well I'm sorry if i don't see eye to eye with your theory. which states that life came about through random mutations and survival of the fittest selection. which eventually leads someone to believe that life has no real value.

I find this statement a little confrontational, offensive and wrong. I don't know how you came to that conclusion, and can only imagine that you brought it up as a way to demonize your opponents.

The truth doesn't care about what you consider valuable anyway, truth is reality and is as unfeeling and unemotional about human perspective as anything else.

Choosing to blind oneself from the truth because of fear or emotional distress is no way to live life.
 
well I'm sorry if i don't see eye to eye with your theory. which states that life came about through random mutations and survival of the fittest selection. which eventually leads someone to believe that life has no real value.

Life has meaning. The meaning of life is to reproduce, literally.

However, I know what you mean. The idea that that is all there is to life is horrifying. But once you get past it, it's actually quite liberating. The philosophical meaning of life is whatever the hell you want it to be.
 
which eventually leads someone to believe that life has no real value.
Not true. By accepting this is all there is to life, it makes you value it more. If this is the only chance anyone gets, who am I to deny them it?
 
well I'm sorry if i don't see eye to eye with your theory. which states that life came about through random mutations and survival of the fittest selection. which eventually leads someone to believe that life has no real value.

You must live very sad lonely life that the only thing that makes you feel like you have real value in life is God.
 
A miracle, walking after 23 years is hard to disprove, spinal cords just do not fix themselves up and muscles atrophy with time, so a genuine miracle even if she does not walk perfectly.


*largest rolling of the eyes EVER*


WHY DOES GOD HATE AMPUTEES?


WHY. DOES. GOD. HATE. AMP-UUUUU-TEEEEEES????
 
Well, yes and no. There're a variety of mechanisms by which mutations happen, and each of those mechanisms tend to favor specific types of effects. For example, the insulin gene (actually called preproinsulin) exists as one copy in humans. However, there is a type of mutation that can occur that results in a retroposon. This causes the 'completed' gene's mRNA to be converted back into genetic material. And this is why rats and mice have two copies of the insulin gene. Their ancestor suffered a gene duplication event, and this gene was incorporated into that lineage. They have the 'normal' insulin gene that we do, and they have to 'mutated' insulin gene that is due to it being a retroposon.

So, this mutation is 'random', in some ways. But its mechanism is such that you'll mostly get genes duplicated if they have an RNA transcript.

Soares MB, Schon E, Henderson A, Karathanasis SK, Cate R, Zeitlin S, Chirgwin J, Efstratiadis A (1985) RNA-mediated gene duplication: the rat preproinsulin I gene is a functional retroposon. Mol Cell Biol. 5:2090-2103
gene duplication is the only mechanism that i've heard that can cause a increase in information. im surprised no one has brought it up yet. it such hypothetical and improbable event that needs to be repeated millions of time in order for it to cause evolutionary change. as i understand it gene duplications are also harmful and need multiple random mutations in the same spot. probability probably means nothing to an evolutionist but the odds are crazy stacked against this happening. it would take way to long even in the evolution time scale.

im still reading the article you linked to. i want to show you the assumptions that are intertwined in it.
 
gene duplication is the only mechanism that i've heard that can cause a increase in information. im surprised no one has brought it up yet. it such hypothetical and improbable event that needs to be repeated millions of time in order for it to cause evolutionary change. as i understand it gene duplications are also harmful and need multiple random mutations in the same spot. probability probably means nothing to an evolutionist but the odds are crazy stacked against this happening. it would take way to long even in the evolution time scale.

im still reading the article you linked to. i want to show you the assumptions that are intertwined in it.

I had posted this article before, but it was ignored. I expect for it to be completely ignored again.
Mathematicians and biologists from the University of Pennsylvania have just come up with a mathematical model that proves that there is plenty of time for evolution to occur.
http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-12-mathematics-plenty-evolution.html
Herbert Wilf, Penn’s Thomas A. Scott Emeritus Professor of Mathematics, and Warren Ewens, emeritus professor of biology, say their model directly challenges the long-standing contention among some doubters that evolution couldn't have happened because the small changes in species outlined by the theory simply would have taken too much time to be completed.

Their works shows that, under a very reasonable model of mutations and natural selection, the time required to evolve a very complex organism is vastly smaller than might be presumed. As a result, the idea that evolution would require "too much time" to be true is proved false.

Wilf and Ewens’ model is described in the paper "There's Plenty of Time for Evolution," which will appear in an upcoming issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. continued...
 
You're never going to get anywhere if you don't break out of this 'information' mindset. Truly, it's a mental block that you've been led into. It's a bad way of thinking about information theory (i.e., if you're involved in programming) and is a horrid way to do genetics.

Regardless, gene duplications (via a multitude of mechanisms) are quite common. e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUF1220

Heck, an article about gene duplication was hot news today.
Sex Reversal Gene: Male Mice Lack Y Chromosome

(note: it's a cool story, everyone should read it.)

Anyway, if you search the thread, I mentioned gene duplication. If you search the forum, it's frequently mentioned. It's a terribly common concept, and the fact that your research into creationist websites didn't highlight them is ... well ... distressing.
 
i read every post you have written. the basic argument you present is random mutations + natural slection + deep time = every evidence for creation is invalid.


You're a liar or you can't read.

The basic argument I present is random mutation and natural selection and deep time = evolution.

There's ZERO evidence for creationism.


your formula is flawed because mutations cause damage to the DNA.


You're still slamming into a wall of granite, magicfan.

You're getting pretty good at this borderline trolling.

Here is how you argue:

1. Askthepizzaguy, you are wrong.
2. Because, assertion of fact I have failed to prove.

3. Fact: harmful mutations happen
4. Therefore all mutations are harmful. (unproven, leaping to conclusions, ignoring my counter-argument entirely)


You'd have to be bloody insane at this point to still be choking on the concept of some versus all like a freaking chicken bone caught in your throat.

You don't know how to debate. You don't know how to debate.

Magicfan, you're wrong.
Because, assertion of fact: You don't know the difference between some and all.
Fact: Some does not mean all.
Therefore, not all mutations are harmful.

Finally understand that, or stop posting. (or come up with a counter-argument instead of saying well you're wrong because I said so)


nothing in this world exist that has repair system to fix something that is not broken. i keep bringing up mutations because it only fits the creation model of death and decay after Adam's sin.

It's your personal belief lacking evidence and if you were intellectually honest instead of stuck on one track that's already diverted off a cliff, you'd finally admit it.

if you want more info on why Adam's sin mattered. i will be more than happy to provide a quick bible review.

I've read the Bible, it's completely unscientific nonsense that is not worth discussing.

each one of your counter arguments depends on mutations providing a gain in information in which the benefit was not the result of a specific environment. if you disagree plz provide one example in where a function was gained and the organism as a whole did not become less fit. also it must be able to be passed on to the offspring.if not, your argument is a hypothetical situation.

How about the evolution of the eyes from epithelial tissue?

How about developing limbs?

How about hearing?

How about growing hair on ones body instead of scales?

How about you read up on what evolution says instead of acting like these wouldn't be the obvious bloody responses?


nobody can prove anything to an absolute. what i can do is provide enough data points. where a conclusion can be drawn that mutations are harmful to the information in the DNA.

Notice how you said "mutations are harmful".

Guess what? I already conceded that some mutations are harmful.

The big giant fricking wall of granite you keep slamming your skull into is that SOME DOES NOT MEAN ALL.

Get it? DO. YOU. UNDERSTAND.

looking "old" is an objective defition. in your mind what does a "young" earth look like? if the earth looks old you must have something to compare it against. when God made the earth wouldn't he make a hill,rivers,streams, and mountains.

You know bloody well, young earth means younger than what scientists predict, which is that the earth is several billion years old.

Stick to the point, it's not something you've mastered yet. You have to crawl before you walk.

well I'm sorry if i don't see eye to eye with your theory. which states that life came about through random mutations and survival of the fittest selection. which eventually leads someone to believe that life has no real value.

No, that's your conclusion that you pulled out of your butt.

Here's how you debate:

Magicfan, your name contains the word magic, therefore you're a believer in magic, therefore you don't believe in science ever, therefore creation science is invalid.

And that's why you're wrong. God says so.

*throws hands up in air* But if you can prove God wrong, go ahead.

That's not how to debate unless you want to make an :nuke: of yourself and frustrate everyone with eyeballs reading that rubbish.

ive presented plenty of arguments for design and complexity. once again all your counter arguments depend on random mutations. natural selection only acts on random mutations. its only a secondary force in the theory of evolution.

By that logic, exhaling is only a secondary force in breathing, and inhaling is the whole point.

You don't look at anything you say with a critical eye before you post, do you?

Seriously, the stuff you say is so simple to refute, because it explodes under the weight of its own illogic.

I'm presenting evidence for creation

YOU NEVER HAVE DONE SO.

so you and anyone reading can respect what the Christianity has to offer. i also agree that religions are mostly harmful and people can often look down on others since were are all in a fallen state. i don't put my faith in a man made religion. its a personal relationship with the creator.

I don't give a flaming kitten if you want people to respect religion, I never will because it is rubbish until proven otherwise by the simple fact it is self-contradictory and contradicting of other religions, whereas non-religion does not contain such fatal errors.

It's also besides the bloody point because you've never presented evidence of creationism ever, anywhere, at any time.

You said mutations are harmful.

I said some mutations are, most are neutral, some are useful, and those get selected for.

You have yet to even come close to refuting it, but you still repeat your assertion that mutations are harmful like I haven't already said "some mutations are, most are neutral, some are useful" like you're a broken record.

Because you refuse to acknowledge that, you haven't proven a danged thing, and you're still slamming skull first into granite while everyone watches you and sympathizes with why trying to have a conversation with you is so ridiculously frustrating.

SOME VERSUS ALL. UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE.
 
I had posted this article before, but it was ignored. I expect for it to be completely ignored again.
Mathematicians and biologists from the University of Pennsylvania have just come up with a mathematical model that proves that there is plenty of time for evolution to occur.
http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-12-mathematics-plenty-evolution.html

i actually read your article last time. probaly forget to leave a post about.
several points why his math model is wrong
1st.there is an intelligent designer behind the program
2nd. mutations are blind there is no spy telling organisms the correct answers. thats cheating.
3. he ignored bad recessive mutations. and any harmful mutations in general. all changes to the genome are neutral or good in his model.
4th. the comments to your article are crazy negative.
 
Allow me to rephrase more respectfully then.

Magicfan;

1. You have deliberately ignored me, repeatedly, regarding your assertion that some mutations being bad mean that they all are, and my response which was that some does not mean all, and you've failed to post any evidence connecting your conclusion that all mutations are bad from your posted evidence that some mutations are bad.

2. You have deliberately misrepresented my position here:

i read every post you have written. the basic argument you present is random mutations + natural slection + deep time = every evidence for creation is invalid.

And I believe you have done so knowingly, for the sole purpose of abusing this debate by attempting to exhaust the opposing advocate through straw man arguments and red herrings which are poor examples of debate, and I object to you using these methods, repeatedly, and seemingly deliberately.

3. You have not presented any evidence of creationism and are deliberately avoiding doing so, and continuing to argue against evolution by suggesting that all mutations are harmful. Which isn't true, as you've already been told, but refuse to acknowledge, and even if it were which it is not, still doesn't disprove evolution, it would only prove evolution to be always harmful (which I've disproved through example; evolution leads to useful adaptations), and finally, evolution does not prove or disprove creationism, it is a separate topic.

4. I find your debate style to be filled with straw men arguments, deliberate red herrings, and other fallacies instead of serious attempts at conversation. I have noticed that you've ignored or not responded to 95% of what people have responded to you with, and you do not admit when you've been proven wrong or shown contradictory evidence, you simply ignore it and bring up another topic. This makes it impossibly difficult to take you seriously and consider your contributions to be anything besides statements of your opinion, which apparently aren't up for discussion with you because you state them as facts and do not respond to refutations. This makes the conversation entirely one-sided.

5. I have brought all of this up before, more times than I can recall, but in more polite terms, but you continue to ignore me. I can only interpret that as a deliberately disrespectful action. That's extremely frustrating because while you wish for other posters to treat your contributions with careful consideration and respect, you do not offer the same in return. It's insulting, in fact. Maybe it's not intentional, but I find that hard to believe after I've told you this before, and after my posts are printed clearly and are easy to find through search, I find it borderline ignoring of the forum rules regarding a certain type of behavior, especially after you've already been corrected and reminded repeatedly.

The more times you repeat the same deliberate ignoring of posts directed at you in response to your posts, the more times you misrepresent the opposing advocates, the more times you straw man or use red herrings or repeat things which have already been refuted, rebutted, replied to, and have not responded to those replies, the more disrespectful it gets.

You would not appreciate it if no one responded to your posts and ignored things you said previously, or deliberately misrepresented your position. You would not appreciate it after you have taken them to task on this sort of thing and they continued to do so.

Those things I find to be a grave violation of conversational etiquette, and outside of a forum, if you did those things to someone in a basic conversation, people would call you on it and treat your arguments with progressively less respect, and rightly so. And, if it degenerated into outright mockery of your arguments, it would also be deserved, after a certain point.

But this is a moderated forum and as such, you're free to abuse this debate for your own purposes, ignore the opposing advocates, and be intellectually dishonest for the lols, and I can't really call you on it unless I do it respectfully, so here it is.

You're not being intellectually honest or respecting your opposing advocates, and I'm calling you on it. Your posts, if they continue in this fashion, could be and should be rightfully ignored.

In return, I'll not respond to you unless I can do it respectfully; at this point I don't believe I can, not unless you change your debate tactics; I find them deliberately provocative.

I believe all of this is posted within forum guidelines, and if not, I apologize to moderators in advance.
 
askthepizzaguy

what evidence would you accept for creation? what would prove a designer?
i just showed a butterfly that can alter light waves to form a unique and beautiful pattern on its wings. with plenty of non creationist sources.
of course keep your suggestion within reason.
 
askthepizzaguy

what evidence would you accept for creation? what would prove a designer?
i just showed a butterfly that can alter light waves to form a unique and beautiful pattern on its wings. with plenty of non creationist sources.
of course keep your suggestion within reason.

But you never showed the clear progression from Thing is really complex->a magician did it

You're missing a step in the thought process there. Until you can demonstrate what evidence in-between conjecture a and conjecture b that leads, empirically, and unequivocally that a leads to b, then no, we aren't going to accept creation.
 
You're never going to get anywhere if you don't break out of this 'information' mindset. Truly, it's a mental block that you've been led into. It's a bad way of thinking about information theory (i.e., if you're involved in programming) and is a horrid way to do genetics.

this where i disagree with you. even people like dawkins believe the genome has information.
http://www.skeptics.com.au/publications/articles/the-information-challenge/
he uses Shannon information shannaon information
 
i actually read your article last time. probaly forget to leave a post about.
several points why his math model is wrong
1st.there is an intelligent designer behind the program
2nd. mutations are blind there is no spy telling organisms the correct answers. thats cheating.
3. he ignored bad recessive mutations. and any harmful mutations in general. all changes to the genome are neutral or good in his model.
4th. the comments to your article are crazy negative.

Sigh, once again your utterly fail to even attempt to try to understand the key mechanism of Natural Selection. Natural selection is the "intellegent designer" behind the model; natural selection is the "spy" in the model. Natural selection deals with the "bad" mutations.

I don't know how many times this has to be explained to you over and over again.
I feel like we would have greater success trying to explain this basic concept to a brick wall.
 
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