EX? - War? What is it good for?

The loyal citizens of Hamburg have overthrown their oppressors and have pledged allegiance to us! They yearn to be with us. Hamburg is now ours. We start building a temple.

Alright! That was the best result we could hope for. Great job settling Madras so aggressively :goodjob: .

Our wonder race does not look good :( .

Delhi and Berlin started their project on the same turn. I count 10 or 11 shield for Berlin at size 6, and 11 shields for Delhi at size 6. That after we mine the hills, and after we switch to Monarchy. Factoring in corruption and Emperor bonus, I don't like our chances. I think our best bet is to irrigate the plains and help Delhi grow as much as possible, rather than mining the hills right now. We don't stand any chance at size 6.

On the other hand, I think The Great Wall might be a great wonder to get for this variant. A defensive wonder for a peaceful game :D

One last note, the white-dot-settler should have a vet spear escort rather than a warrior. The Germans have archers-a-plenty. Founding a city deep in their territory guarded by a lone warrior is like saying: spank me.
 
One the escort - we'll send in a vet spear later, right now we can only spare that warrior.

As for the wonder race, I said it would be tight :).
 
You guys may yell at me for this, but I veto the Great Library. It's only really effective when used to get most of the ancient techs. We're already at tech parity; it would gain us six techs at most. Swapped to granary; our growth curve has been suffering in the mad settler rush, and it's time to turn that around. We've got enough land to win; it's now a matter of consolidating it.

I also veto the plan of sending a settler into the heart of Germany. What in the world would it ever gain us? And it will crumple like paper when (not if) Germany declares war on us, if it doesn't flip first.

On that growth curve idea, veto the settler in Bombay and change to a granary. Change tiles in Madras to delay growth until after the granary finishes. Ganges changed to galley to stake our claim on the western island sooner rather than later. Bangalore swapped back to spearman. Change tiles in Ganges to get +5 food, growth in 2 turns. (I notice Ganges is suffering from two whip effects - careful, there.)

Lux dropped to 0%; it was unnecessary.

775 BC: The settler that was near Ganges turns around and heads out to the ivory peninsula. That's the most fertile site we have left - and the whales are immediately reachable thanks to Ganges' culture - so let's get it up and running.

750: Ganges grew, lux needs to go to 10%, microed again for +5 food/growth in 2.

730: Chittagong founded on the ivory peninsula.

690: Hyderabad whips its temple.

Greece and Babylon make peace.

Well, the western island turned out a bit smaller than I expected. Sri Lanka :) founded there anyway.

610 BC: Greece declares war on Persia!

Our galley spots sea out to the west, and makes a run...

and survives!

550 BC: We contact the Aztecs and Zulu. I trade them Mathematics (they're that far behind) for their maps and 70 gold total. Now, those contacts are the bargaining chip we need to pry a governmental tech off somebody else. I trade:

Contact with Aztec and Zulu, World Map, 255 gold to Persia for The Republic.

Republic to Greece for Currency + 188 gold. That's the Middle Ages.

The two contacts + 335 gold to Babylon for Monotheism. Expensive, but the contacts take a third off the price; no sense in letting the bargaining chips go to waste.

Germany has 42 gold to offer for the two contacts.

Ganges, Bombay, Delhi, Madras swap to marketplaces. I might suggest having one of them switch to cathedral, then build a wonder for Sistine or Bach's.

I was going to stop at 550 BC, but went one extra turn to get us through the anarchy into Republic. Persia demands 21 gold, paid.

======

Thunderhawk retires.

The worker at Ganges is clearing the forest in order to get irrigation to the next plains tile for Lahore.

6 turns until Monarchy finishes at minimum; it'll probably be good to trade for a tech or two.

We could use a Forbidden Palace somewhere - but where? Calcutta is the best geographic location, but would take forever to dig itself out of the jungle to build it. Madras or Hamburg could do it much quicker but at less optimal location. I think I'd go for it in Calcutta, pouring our worker efforts at the city.

We're in really, really good shape here. :goodjob:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/chandragupta-530bc.zip
 
No GL? Mmmm... this will be interesting. Doesn't bother me though :). Judging by your persistence in RBE2 I would suspect you'd go for it at all costs ;).

Nice trading, btw. If there is one wonder I shallnot approve missing it is Sistene's. Prebuild NOW for it if possible, and if we can save Monarchy to trade for Theology (unless we can research it in good time). Sistene's is the MOST powerful wonder in the game - nothing can beat 6 unhappy people made content. I haven't played a game without it, and I don't plan on it this time either.

You're up, SJ. :)

--Ex
 
A GL here would've been worth 6-7 techs. In RBE2, it would've been worth 20+ techs, and they're more expensive on Deity than Emperor. That's the difference. :)

Sistine isn't always the best wonder - for non-religious civs, Bach's is often better, since it doesn't need expensive cathedrals to work. (And in my book, the best is generally the Pyramids or in some situations the Great Library.) But it's great here, as long as cascade from the GL doesn't eat it... hopefully they'll go to Sun Tzu's instead.

As for trading, that's a good part of making the difference between surviving on Emperor, and dominating on Emperor and competing on Deity. You should almost never pay full price for a tech. Bide your time, wait for your chance. Then when your opening comes up to buy tech and immediately resell it, or to parley a bargaining chip like contacts, a tech, or even a map into multiple trades, jump on it. It's like saving grocery store coupons. :) My round of trading in RBE2 surprised nobody in the game.
 
Sistine isn't always the best wonder

Heathen! :lol: I don't care who I am, I must have that wonder! You'll end up building cathedrals sooner or later, so I still defend it. Also, Bach's only affects your continent; Sistene's is global. And, hey, 6 is better than 2 anyday ;).

And they are the same price aren't they? Oh yea, Bach's is usually harder to get since it usually comes after Sun Tzu's, while Sistene's usually is in the middle of the AI rush for Sun Tzu's (which why Sistene's usually isn't that ahrd toget if you acquire Theology soon enough; the AI always seems to prefer Sun Tzu's).

My 2 cents. :)

--Ex
 
Bach's is usually much easier to get on high difficulty, since you can start prebuilding much farther ahead of time, and the AIs get to the tech slowly.

And Sistine does NOT make 6 citizens content. Sistine adds 3 more to a city with a cathedral (which already provides 3.) Bach's adds 2, no cathedral required. On high difficulty for non-religious civs, cathedrals usually wait until after factories and hospitals, and by then you'll have plenty of luxuries. Gotta build marketplaces, banks for Wall Street, courthouses, and medieval wonders, not to mention military. Also note that Bach's is much better if you're conquering. No time to build cathedrals in your cities, and Bach's works even in just-captured cities, where you need it the most -- just like Sun Tzu's which everybody loves for just those reasons.

Sistine is clearly better here, definitely - but it's not the blanket best choice for all situations. Global vs continental is another factor, but even in a game like TH2, by the time you have large cities overseas you'll have plenty of lux.
 
Ex
T-Hawk
SJ Frank >> UP NOW
Erik Mesoy >> ON DECK
Zarth

If SJ doesn't call it by tonight, Erik Mesoy can grab the game.

btw - T-Hawk, I'm just pulling your strings :). But I still like Sistene's more :D.

--Ex
 
Originally posted by T-hawk
You guys may yell at me for this, but I veto the Great Library
...
I also veto the plan of sending a settler into the heart of Germany
...
On that growth curve idea, veto the settler in Bombay and change to a granary

Those vetos are the exact moves that I would have made, for roughly the same reasons. No one's gonna yell at you from this corner. :D

One difference would have been switch Delhi to either the Great Wall or a palace prebuild. There are already many AI wonders started. The next wonder to finish -- the German Great Library -- won't be done for another 20-30 turns, so the cascade might last well into the middle ages. Delhi had a shield lead on almost all AI wonders. It would have guranteed a middle age wonder for us.

I will play and post later tonight.
 
Originally posted by T-hawk
Actually, believe it or not, Delhi will complete a wonder just as fast for having that granary. Those 60 shields will be just about recouped by faster city growth by the time it reaches 600. And it'll put out more cash in the meantime too.

Yes, I think you're right about this one. Delhi, with just plains in range, needs the granary badly.
 
Alright, here's my 10 turns. During my turns, I focused on building workers to help the Forbidden Palace, made a weak attempt at strengthing our military, and got us started on the Sistine Chapel.


0) 530 BC

- Change Ganges to worker. I want more workers, and our capital, with
its massive food bonus, seems to be the place to get them.
- Change Delhi to spear. Land grab is over, I think its time we stop the
farmer's gambit.
- Change Madras to a palace prebuild for Sisine's. Sorry I vetoed so
many merketplaces, but I see workers, military and wonder as more
pressing need for us than the economy. I'm not in a big hurry to catch
up in tech.
- I wake the spear in Ganges and send him to Madras. I wake the vet
spear in Madras, sending him on a long trek to Jaipur. He would love
to have a pleasent boat journey instead, but I don't think we have one
to spare. It will take him a dozen turns to get there. Hopefully there
will be no war until then.
- I press the spacebar.

1) 510 BC

- In between turns, Zulus start the Great Wall.
- Our exploring warrior sights persian stack of 5 regular archers on
their way to Greece.
- Ganges finishes worker, starts another one.
- Kolhapur finishs temple, starts on worker.
- The vet spear that was being sent to Kilhapur is called back and sent
to Calcutta instead. Calcutta's spear joins force with the Madras
spears, both are sent on their way to Jaipur.
- Bengal's temple is hurried for 68 gold.

2) 490 BC

- Germans start the Great Lighthouse in Frankfurt. I guess we don't have
to worry about a german attack anytime soon. Though it does mean
Frankfurt has just finished its culture building.
- Ganges finishes worker, starts another one.
- Punjab is founded.
- Jaipur's temple is rushed for 32 gold.

3) 470 BC

- Ganges finishes worker, starts another one. It temporarily borrows one
cattle from Madras to grow in one turn, so that another worker can be
finished the next turn. I'm really pushing the worker production limit
here :) .
- After Jaipur's temple, walls are selected as the next project.
- I ferried Bangalore's defending warrior over Sri Lanka's island, to
occupy the last legal settle spot on it. I don't want an AI to steal
iron from right under our nose. The previous turn, I had rotated
Chittagong, Delhi, and Gangalore's defenders, so now Bangalore and
Delhi are defended by Vet spears, while Chittagong is left undefended.
Chittagong will get its defender when Gangalore finishes its regular
spear in 5 turns.
- Hyderadad rioted, appearantly it had some whip history behind it. I
hire a scientist and lowered our scient buget to 0%. That 10% of
science is worth 10 gpt!
- Somewhere during my turn, Ellipi expanded culture and immediate took
over the culture lead against Karachi! All along our northern front,
our cities are badly in need to garrison troops to prevent culture
flips.
- A round of diplomacy shows no AI has researched anything yet. We are 3
turns from finishing Monarchy.

4) 450 BC

- Ganges does not finish worker as planed, because corruption eats one
of the 10 shields. Nuts! Instead of wasting so many shields, I set it
to growth in two and starts on the long delayed marketplace.
- Still, nobody has any tech to offer. We are at +46 gpt. I spend the
cash to establish embassies with Babs and Zulus. Babylon is building
the Great Wall. It's at size 3! Growth in two and 7 shields per turn.
Babylon has a library as its culture building. So that's how Ellipi
was able to over take Karachi's culture. Zimbabwe is size 6, growth in
7 and will (not) complete the Great Wall in 24 turns. Zimbabwe has a
temple, and being Zulus of course, a barrack.

5) 430 BC

- One turn to finish Monarchy and still nobody has researched anything.
- I establish embassy with the Aztecs. Their capital is at size 7,
guarded by 7 spears, hires one entertainer, has zero growth and is
building Wealth! Silly AI :rolleyes:
- Remembering Karachi's lesson, thinking that Germany's culture
building might also be libraries, I swap Bombay's marketplace to
Cathedral. Must...not...let...Germans...get...iron. So, none of the 4
marketplaces that I inherited survived. Sorry :(

6) 410 BC

- Monarchy is discovered. Nobody has anything to offer. I choose
Theology as our next research target. Due in 40.
- Ganges grows to size 7. Lux rate to 20%.

7) 390 BC

- ...

8) 370 BC

- In between turns, The Germans finishes the Great Library, and
immediately started the Great Wall in Berlin. If they get it, it will
be Golden age for them, but I don't think they will. I trade
Republic to them for WM + 7 gold. Bismark thinks it's highway robbery!
Well, yes it is, but you're not suppose to think of it that way.

- Before entering Bab territory to reinforce Jaipur, I annouce our good
intentions: I sign an ROP with the Babs for 26 gold -- that's them
paying us. Our spear pair gets on the Bab road net for a short ride.

9) 350 BC

- Everybody cascades, Persepolis finishes the Great Wall.
- I buy a pair of Persian worker for ROP plus 50 gold.

10) 330 BC

- Other than a few Colossus still being built and the German Light House
in Franfurt, the cascade is broken (boy was I wrong about that one).
Sistine's is ours :) Madras' shields is actually ahead of the tech, so
for once, our wonder city doesn't need much worker help either.
- Bombay finishes Cathedral and starts on marketplace.

Calcutta has been switched to courthouse in preparation for the FP, the
next player can rush it once we have enough cash (which is next turn :) ).

Hyderabad will need to build a culture building soonish to battle the
Babs. Nineveh just lost a wonder race, those shield must have gone to a
culture building instead. Ellipi mean while has been gaining on
Hyderabab steadily at the pace of 1 culture per turn.

Our military is still too thin; we could still use more workers; but other
than those "minor" issues, we are doing extremely well.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Chandragupta-330BC.zip
 
I also veto the plan of sending a settler into the heart of Germany

Mmmm... just felt I should redeem myself here :). I figured not only would the city make a wondrous fishing town (bg, forest, fish), but if we could rush some culture there we could induce some German cities to flip. It would be tough, but having another city full of culture between borders like that can be very useful :D.

Mesoy, you're up.
 
Ex >> ON DECK
T-Hawk
SJ Frank
Erik Mesoy >> SKIPPED
Zarth >> UP NOW

Mesoy is skipped indefinitely this round, Zarth, you're up.
 
Just to continue the arguing... :)

Mmmm... just felt I should redeem myself here . I figured not only would the city make a wondrous fishing town (bg, forest, fish), but if we could rush some culture there we could induce some German cities to flip. It would be tough, but having another city full of culture between borders like that can be very useful .

A fishing village is not wondrous - or even at all useful - if it's going to be in terminal corruption. That settler became Sri Lanka instead, which is somewhat better as a fishing village, since it's slightly closer for corruption and at least it will get its full tile radius.

As for flipping; first, our city would never gain a second-ring tile from a German city; they've got their cheap libraries by now. And remember the ratio of distance-to-capitals factor - those German cities are right next to their capital, which more than cancels our advantage in civ-wide cultures. It'd be more likely to flip away from us than flip anything to us. And it would tend to drain resources from our core cities - both units for garrison and cash for rushes (I've noticed the temptation to rush buildings in useless cities is high in SGs, even excepting TH2 which was rather a special case for that. :) )

Besides, I think we already used up most of our flipping luck at Hamburg. :)
 
Do we want workers? Look at my management of Thebes in TH2 here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=420204#post420204

Ganges can do that! At size 6, it needs to work all three cattle, the flood plains, and two irrigated plains. That's 10 surplus food and 9 shields. Then it will grow 6->7, auto-pick a forest, which is the 10th shield to complete a worker every turn.

Do this for the next 15 turns and we'll never need more workers anywhere again. (And do it right after this marketplace finishes, otherwise Ganges will waste a lot of food shrinking back down to size 6.)

Actually, do this FOREVER and we'll have workers to inflate the population in all our cities amazingly fast! (I should've thought of that in TH2.)

And yes, it IS worth it to dedicate your capital to worker production when it can churn them out at light speed. :) Do the math - it's equivalent of adding 20 FOOD PER TURN to the other cities. And by manufacturing population to add to Calcutta, our FP will get done much much sooner.
 
Move me to the back of the roster, please. Im here, my away reason this time was that my idea of vacation is to play Civ3. My family's idea is to drag me up to a remote cabin somewhere in Norway. I can grab it if you like...
 
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