Existence of God (split from old thread)

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Sure, it's possible, but there is 0 reason or evidence for us to think that this is true. To clarify I am sticking to the facts here and trying to not get wrapped up in hypotheticals. All signs point to the mind originating in the brain, so it's sensible to assume that this is the case, unless evidence is unearthed that suggests otherwise, at which point in time it would be wise to revisit that assumption.

We say "change your mind" and not "change your brain" for a good reason. To change your brain is a physical act to change your mind isnt. We perform this non-physical act hundred or thousand times per day yet you think you need for the sake of clarity to not to get stuck in hypotheticals?
I would say that what makes you more truely human isnt your physical body which is largely still an animal but exactly this non-physical "actor" your mind with all its various capacities for analysis, deduction, abstraction, imagination etc. And although I dont think you are your mind its probably more correct then to say you are your body.

 

[civver_764]

I've asked myself and myself reported 'yes'. Psychology would not be a thing if we were divorced from the effects of memories and actions on our being.

I never said that we were divorced from our memories and actions.

 

[Synobun]

You're not saying much if we're being honest here. Warpus has asked several times for you to pinpoint what is infinite about the self and vague hand-wavey statements are given in response. Any counterarguments to the infinite claim are simply dismissed or brushed aside.

As it stands, you haven't offered anything more than a spiritual concept as evidence towards the self being infinite, an idea immediately disproven by all the diseases and injuries of the brain that irreparably alter someone's personality or ability to be conscious.

 

[warpus]

No you didn't. Your memories are not "you", they're just something that "you" experience.

If memories were not a part of me and "just something I experience", how would I ever be able to recollect them?

If my memories are not a part of me, then what is? I have a finite amount of toes, does that count? Your criteria seems unattainable by design.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

You're not saying much if we're being honest here. Warpus has asked several times for you to pinpoint what is infinite about the self and vague hand-wavey statements are given in response. Any counterarguments to the infinite claim are simply dismissed or brushed aside.

To be fair to pinpoint the finite is much more easier.

As it stands, you haven't offered anything more than a spiritual concept as evidence towards the self being infinite, an idea immediately disproven by all the diseases and injuries of the brain that irreparably alter someone's personality or ability to be conscious.

Disease or injury doesnt disprove infinity any more then a sleep does.

 

[Synobun]

To be fair to pinpoint the finite is much more easier.

Disease or injury doesnt disprove infinity any more then a sleep does.

It disproves the idea that the self is infinite because it's separate from the finite. If our self were infinite and set apart, no injury or disease could rob us of our self.

Except they do.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

It disproves the idea that the self is infinite because it's separate from the finite. If our self were infinite and set apart, no injury or disease could rob us of our self.

Except they do.

So you are your personality and ability to be conscious? Except you are not becouse you loose both (partialy) in the sleep...

 

[Synobun]

So you are your personality and ability to be conscious? Except you are not becouse you loose both (partialy) in the sleep...

Computers can't do quantum level computing while they're turned off either. Doesn't mean there's a ghost in the machine.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Computers can't do quantum level computing while they're turned off either. Doesn't mean there's a ghost in the machine.

When you "turn off" your consciousness and personality during a sleep does that make you a switched off computer?

 

[Synobun]

When you "turn off" your consciousness and personality during a sleep does that make you a switched off computer?

We are essentially biological machines so yes, an apt analogy would be a computer that's been turned off or, dare I say it, in sleep mode. We're simply advanced enough that we possess agency, a problem we'll be facing with artificial computers in the future. A problem we will face because our ability to create finite hardware will progress to the point where such an ability, to possess agency, is made possible.

 

[civver_764]

It disproves the idea that the self is infinite because it's separate from the finite. If our self were infinite and set apart, no injury or disease could rob us of our self.

Except they do.

What makes you say injury or disease rob us of our self? We're still here even if we're sick.

If memories were not a part of me and "just something I experience", how would I ever be able to recollect them?

Do you ever intentionally recollect anything, or do memories come up all on their own?

If my memories are not a part of me, then what is? I have a finite amount of toes, does that count? Your criteria seems unattainable by design.

It is unattainable, that's the point. What you are can't really be talked about, because it's the basis for everything.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

We are essentially biological machines so yes, an apt analogy would be a computer that's been turned off or, dare I say it, in sleep mode. We're simply advanced enough that we possess agency, a problem we'll be facing with artificial computers in the future. A problem we will face because our ability to create finite hardware will progress to the point where such an ability, to possess agency, is made possible.

Or you could just use something which already has planty of capacity for agencies and "computerise" it. The only problem is it would be considered immoral and even inhuman. I wonder why if all we are is just a biological machines...

 

[Synobun]

What makes you say injury or disease rob us of our self? We're still here even if we're sick.

Personal experience, plenty of time spent in hospitals with those suffering from brain injuries, and helping take care of the elderly who can't live by themselves anymore.

Your self ceases to exist when your brain becomes mush. You can go from a kind-hearted individual to being overwhelmed with homicidal rage if one exact part of your brain is damaged or removed.

Spend time with people with severe brain injury or a disease that eats at their brain. Especially time with people you knew before they had either of those things.

Or you could just use something which already has planty of capacity for agencies and "computerise" it. The only problem is it would be considered immoral and even inhuman. I wonder why if all we are is just a biological machines...

We don't know how to ascend the human consciousness to an artificial construct. It would probably be considered immoral, yes, but that's likely because your self would cease to exist the moment you transfer.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

We don't know how to ascend the human consciousness to an artificial construct. It would probably be considered immoral, yes, but that's likely because your self would cease to exist the moment you transfer.

Are you sure it would be an ascent though? All the animals just like computers have some ability which far surpasses that of the human but becoming an animal is hardly ever an ascent. Becoming a machine is even more derogatory. We are not the machines either.

 

[Synobun]

Are you sure it would be an ascent though? All the animals just like computers have some ability which far supresses that of the human but becoming an animal is hardly ever an ascent. Becoming a machine is even more derogatory. We are not the machines either.

I suppose that depends on your perspective. I personally wouldn't see it as an ascension due to my attachment towards being a bag of meat but transhumanists would probably disagree.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I suppose that depends on your perspective. I personally wouldn't see it as an ascension due to my attachment towards being a bag of meat but transhumanists would probably disagree.

Its a question of morals and/or aesthetics I suppose - something which neither animals (no quite true here) or machines seems to posses. What it is in our existence which gives rise to it? Answering this could brings as closer to what we are I would think.

 

[civver_764]

Personal experience, plenty of time spent in hospitals with those suffering from brain injuries, and helping take care of the elderly who can't live by themselves anymore.

Your self ceases to exist when your brain becomes mush. You can go from a kind-hearted individual to being overwhelmed with homicidal rage if one exact part of your brain is damaged or removed.

Spend time with people with severe brain injury or a disease that eats at their brain. Especially time with people you knew before they had either of those things.

Well their personalities may change, but the fundamental "self" behind them is still there.

 

[Synobun]

Well their personalities may change, but the fundamental "self" behind them is still there.

By your phrasing, it sounds like you're referring to a soul.

 

[civver_764]

By your phrasing, it sounds like you're referring to a soul.

You could call it a soul, I don't use that term because it carries other connotations.

 

[Synobun]

The connotation that it doesn't exist, yes. If we're having a conversation about the soul then we're going to need more than a quantification of what's infinite in the self. We'll first need evidence that the soul exists.