Existence of God (split from old thread)

[Synobun]

Our thoughts, inclinations, and memories are clearly contained in the appendix.

 

[El_Machinae]

It seems obvious to me that the mind is separate than the brain organ. If you look at the brain you're not going to see thoughts and feelings and experiences.

Even if the linkage is not perfect, and we have no reason to assume otherwise, it's still true that the mind is constrained by the brain.

Any function of the mind that you can think of can be ruined by damaging its neuroanatomical correlate

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Given that my mind is contained in my brain, which is finite, it's sensible to assume that my subconscious and other parts of my mind are finite too.

You can measure brain but can you measure mind? or its thoughts? If I think: 'love' or 'hate' would you be able to tell me the measurments or the physical difference? I dont think so. Yet, this non-physical reality-existence is the essence of what constitutes a being human. It makes world of a difference in regard to human consciousness. Where is the limit of it? In a physical measurments of the brain? I dont think so...

 

[timtofly]

Even if the linkage is not perfect, and we have no reason to assume otherwise, it's still true that the mind is constrained by the brain.

Any function of the mind that you can think of can be ruined by damaging its neuroanatomical correlate

"Ruined" is a pretty finite and absolute diagnostic. Would render useless for practical purposes be a more sensible approach? Perhaps we have yet to correlate the observed activity and what is actually happening in one's mind, but that is one of the observations that will never be apparent. It is not what happens that is the issue. It is remembering or even the retention of what happens when there is no observable physical activity being observed on a neurological level.

 

[civver_764]

No, obviously we also have things like toes and butts and noses. Our minds seem to originate from within the brain, but that doesn't mean that we are our brains. I am open to the idea that our minds originate elsewhere, but for now all the evidence seems to rather strongly point to the brain as the origin, so it doesn't make sense to me to assume anything else. Without more information that suggests otherwise, it would be intellectually dishonest of me to assume something other than that at this time.

Let me try to put this another way.

You are clearly not your toes, because if you cut them off you're still there. You're clearly not your butt, because even though your body will probably die without it, you would still experience that "dying". If we cut out your brain, we don't know what happens to your experience. Yes, we can observe a correlation between experiences and brain activity, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing, only connected somehow. We also observe a correlation between, for example, hitting your toes and the experience of pain. The brain is just a bunch of cells just like your toes.

When you look at something, that "thing" is just an image in your mind. When you look at a car, for example, the image of the car that exists only in your mind, yet you would probably consider that "outside" of yourself.

 

[warpus]

Let me try to put this another way.

You are clearly not your toes, because if you cut them off you're still there. You're clearly not your butt, because even though your body will probably die without it, you would still experience that "dying". If we cut out your brain, we don't know what happens to your experience.

That is not a great argument. You can remove a part of your brain and still continue to exist. "You" does not reside in a singular point in space that you could point to. It's distributed among your brain and possibly along other parts of the nervous system. Sort of like the internet does not exist in one place. It's distributed. You can remove parts of it and it will continue to function.

Yes, we can observe a correlation between experiences and brain activity, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing, only connected somehow.

And so far that is the only part of the body we can see such correlation with. So it's natural to assume that this is the origin of the mind.

You can measure brain but can you measure mind? or its thoughts? If I think: 'love' or 'hate' would you be able to tell me the measurments or the physical difference? I dont think so. Yet, this non-physical reality-existence is the essence of what constitutes a being human. It makes world of a difference in regard to human consciousness. Where is the limit of it? In a physical measurments of the brain? I dont think so...

You can't easily measure the capacity of the mind (for thought, reason, emotion, etc.) but it is surely finite. If it weren't a human could continue learning and learning and never forget anything. Yet this is demonstrably false.

 

[timtofly]

You can't easily measure the capacity of the mind (for thought, reason, emotion, etc.) but it is surely finite. If it weren't a human could continue learning and learning and never forget anything. Yet this is demonstrably false.

If you cannot measure the capacity, saying it is finite does not follow. Being infinite is an attribute of non-measurable. Forgetting information is also not a hindrance to learning. A human can keep learning new data. And data that is forgotten will always be new. Comprehension and usage are part of learning. However, I think it can also be demonstrated that the mind takes in a lot more information than we as personalities can even consciously keep track of.

 

[warpus]

If you cannot measure the capacity, saying it is finite does not follow.

Can you measure the exact size of the internet?

Nope, but we can easily deduce that it is finite, since it resides on hardware which is finite in size and number.

 

[civver_764]

That is not a great argument. You can remove a part of your brain and still continue to exist. "You" does not reside in a singular point in space that you could point to.

This is essentially my point. The brain is a measurable object. "You" are not.

[qIt's distributed among your brain and possibly along other parts of the nervous system. Sort of like the internet does not exist in one place. It's distributed. You can remove parts of it and it will continue to function.

The internet is also not a measurable object, just an abstraction that we use for convenience.

 

[warpus]

Yes, and our mind is most probably also an abstraction sitting on various levels of abstractions, all sitting on the hardware, aka the brain. As far as we can tell that's probably what is going on.

 

[civver_764]

Yes, and our mind is most probably also an abstraction sitting on various levels of abstractions, all sitting on the hardware, aka the brain. As far as we can tell that's probably what is going on.

So then who are you?

 

[warpus]

I am warpus, shatterer of small plates, conqueror of Whomp's boat (RIP).

I assume that is not the answer you were seeking, but you'll have to be more specific with your question. Do think there has to be a physical thing you can point to and say "that's me!" Why? What is the internet?

 

[civver_764]

I am warpus, shatterer of small plates, conqueror of Whomp's boat (RIP).

I assume that is not the answer you were seeking, but you'll have to be more specific with your question. Do think there has to be a physical thing you can point to and say "that's me!" Why? What is the internet?

I said you are infinite, and you disagreed. If you disagree, then who are you?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Tell me who are you? You? You? You? YOOOOU?

 

[Berzerker]

the afterlife: get hit in the head hard enough and you dont know what happened, get hit harder and you know everything

 

[El_Machinae]

But, keep in mind, there are sections of the brain that can be damaged, and then you can then experience the loss of your capability. You can literally perceive that you have been cut away from, and that you're diminished.

 

[warpus]

I said you are infinite, and you disagreed. If you disagree, then who are you?

I'm a human dude. Human dudes are finite in size and girth and everything else.

 

[timtofly]

Can you measure the exact size of the internet?

Nope, but we can easily deduce that it is finite, since it resides on hardware which is finite in size and number.

I would say the Internet is the first thing humans produced that is infinite. Perhaps at one point it was finite, but now it encircles the earth without beginning or end.

Yes, and our mind is most probably also an abstraction sitting on various levels of abstractions, all sitting on the hardware, aka the brain. As far as we can tell that's probably what is going on.

The brain is a network of intersections, and probably easier to find an end or a beginning than the internet. But it is also infinite in the possibilities it contains, and that is the mind. Even on a pure materialistic standpoint it is infinite, as it is not a physical point from a to b. It is a continuous looping system. The mind only sits on the brain, and neither are abstract, else we would just be a programmed computer. Personality is the abstract that sits in the mind. I do not think that you have to admit the mind is purely physical, but it is not an abstract. We do not think we have a mind. The mind is a concrete if not physical reality, and is the source of all thought. The brain just being the physical part. Now it is possible to have more than one abstract personality, and the mind can be irrational and at times conflicted, but for the most part, there is one mind and one you, and you are the result of the data put into your mind one way or the other. No other human is going to convince you that you are eternal and infinite. The point is to come up with excuses or logical reasoning to convince a human they are only finite flesh in a material universe.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Our thoughts, inclinations, and memories are clearly contained in the appendix.

I assume you speak on behalf of your family and I believe you.

 

[Synobun]

I assume you speak on behalf of your family and I believe you.

I feel validated when the NPCs of this simulation believe what I say.