Existence of God (split from old thread)

[warpus]

Thanks but can you elaborate? I think the first premise that existence is infinite quite holds. Everything from there is a smooth sailing.

I mean first of all, how is existence infinite? It demonstrably isn't. You are born and you die. Your existence begins and it ends. That's a finite amount of time.

The rest of the sentence doesn't follow at all either. It honestly just reads like random things put together into a sentence to me.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I mean first of all, how is existence infinite? It demonstrably isn't. You are born and you die. Your existence begins and it ends. That's a finite amount of time.

The rest of the sentence doesn't follow at all either. It honestly just reads like random things put together into a sentence to me.

The individual existence quite clearly doesnt seem to be infinite although from spiritual pov this is just an appearance. But if you take the existence of the universe it seems to be even from a scientific pov either a product of an infinite multiverse or a part of process of infinitely recurring universes through their expansion and contraction. In either case infinity enters the picture as some sort of constant necessary for the explanation of existence.

 

[warpus]

We have no idea if the universe is in an infinite multiverse or not. So you are 100% guessing about all of this.

Even if the universe were infinite, that implies absolutely nothing about God or Gods existing. How could it?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

We have no idea if the universe is in an infinite multiverse or not. So you are 100% guessing about all of this.

Thats the whole point of abstract thinking though. Just becouse you dont know something for 100% you use it to 'connect the dots' so that you can understand how things work in some broadest sense. Its a natural and necessary part of our mental activity including science.

Even if the universe were infinite, that implies absolutely nothing about God or Gods existing. How could it?

Well you see, once you admit infinity as a part of the existence the problem is how does that add up with our everyday practical experience of limitation? Can reality be both infinite in one way and limited in another?

If the existence is infinite then God is only natural and integral part of that reality becouse God is by definition infinite reality.

 

[timtofly]

You two are going to have to define abstract thought and how it fits into reality. There is abstract thought and human concepts. This is not necessarily reality, just like we have math and concepts which assume tell us the point of the big bang. But there has been no concrete observations as to what happened 10k years ago, much less if there was existence more than a million years ago. That is a concept based on observations and confirmed hypothesis. It does seem to take a certain amount of time for something to happen, and we see it happening so therefore in a circular sense it has always happened, unless of course it did not, which we cannot varify.

By extension if there was not a starting point, then by circular thought, there is no end or beginning. That is the framework of the physical, material, observable known. However, God is not the point of filling in the "blank" unknown. That is a human idea based on the point that human's can have ideas. The only reason is because there is no room for a separate reality beyond the reality that we do know. The reality is that a finite thinking person understands only a finite existense, where the majority of knowledge is still unknown. While being able to conceptualize the infinite, and perhaps a personal grudge on not being privy to such infinity, that is, with no ability to make any sense or logical connection to such, is the issue.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

But there has been no concrete observations as to what happened 10k years ago, much less if there was existence more than a million years ago.

The fossil record leaves evidence, as does the archaeological record. So yes, we know of some things that happened 10,000 years ago, and there was "existence" more than a million years ago.

 

[Agent327]

There was existence 13.9 billion years ago. Give or take a year.

The debate was about how life began...and we just dont know.

Yes. Sometimes the rational answer is simply 'We don't know.' That also is science.

a bunch of people think Eden might be under the Gulf. I was responding to someone else who wanted a link, so I gave her a link.

That's not really the issue. It would be more honest to say 'We don't know'. Certainly more honest than positing dubious claims.

Clarified what? Looked to me like you never heard of anatomically modern humans and objected to my 'failure' to call them homo sapien sapiens. Did someone dispute your point?

I'm not unfamiliar with modern biology and evolutionary theory. I'm not sure what point there is here?

Where did Neandertals get their DNA? Where did we get ours? The same place. It appears Neandertals split from erectus earlier than we did, but both Neandertals and us should have similar erectus DNA. That doesn't mean we didn't acquire Neandertal DNA more recently, but it could mean erectus is the source for some of our shared DNA.

It's quite possible.

We have no idea if the universe is in an infinite multiverse or not.

I'm fairly sure the universe is not 'an infinite multiverse'. It's neither infinite, nor a multiverse.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I'm fairly sure the universe is not 'an infinite multiverse'. It's neither infinite, nor a multiverse.

Too bad becouse I am fairly sure this universe is part of an infinite multiverse.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Based on what evidence?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Based on what evidence?

Let Agent327 bring in his first I will follow.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Let Agent327 bring in his first I will follow.

I'm asking you, not Agent327, since I already agree with his position.

 

[Ryika]

Can reality be both infinite in one way and limited in another?

Yeah, of course it can. Everything is limited by the space it occupies, even infinity. An array of randomly arranged 0s and 1s will never contain a 2, even if that array is infinitely long.

I'm fairly sure the universe is not 'an infinite multiverse'. It's neither infinite, nor a multiverse.

Too bad becouse I am fairly sure this universe is part of an infinite multiverse.

That's not even a contradiction.

The universe is most certainly not an infinite multiverse, the universe is the universe. Whether it's part of an infinite universe, we don't know.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I'm asking you, not Agent327, since I already agree with his position.

Its O.K. then that you present the evidence on his behalf.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Yeah, of course it can. Everything is limited by the space it occupies, even infinity. An array of randomly arranged 0s and 1s will never contain a 2, even if that array is infinitely long.

This seems correct but I wasnt talking about infinity of any portion of reality but reality in its totality. Once the infinity applies to any phenomena or portion of reality it means any other part of that reality can be infinite too. E.g. you can have infinite set of random 0s and 2s. But more importantly if you apply that to a consciousness/inteligence you get God as a result and natural part of existence.

 

[Akka]

It honestly just reads like random things put together into a sentence to me.

Are you still surprised by now, after so many posts in so many threads ?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Are you still surprised by now, after so many posts in so many threads ?

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Anymore questions?

 

[warpus]

I'm fairly sure the universe is not 'an infinite multiverse'. It's neither infinite, nor a multiverse.

Universe to some people means "Everything that exists". So if it turns out that our universe is a part of a larger multi-verse, to those people "universe" would then mean "potentially infinite multiverse"

Having said that, how do you know the universe is not infinite?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Its O.K. then that you present the evidence on his behalf.

He's quite capable of presenting it on his own, if he chooses to do so.

Universe to some people means "Everything that exists". So if it turns out that our universe is a part of a larger multi-verse, to those people "universe" would then mean "potentially infinite multiverse"

Having said that, how do you know the universe is not infinite?

According to Carl Sagan, "The Cosmos is all there is, or ever was, or ever will be."

Right now the multiverse is a hypothesis, and until/unless it's shown to be true, for me it's still science fiction. I will say that I love alt-history stories, and some of the Mirror Universe Star Trek episodes are quite good (not the DS9 ones). So if the multiverse hypothesis turns out to be correct, that would be nifty. I could stop feeling guilty for everything bad I did in this life and all the things I never accomplished - because chances are, in some other universe, it all turned out right.

Or it could have turned out even worse. I suspect I will never get to know.

 

[timtofly]

The fossil record leaves evidence, as does the archaeological record. So yes, we know of some things that happened 10,000 years ago, and there was "existence" more than a million years ago.

So evidence trumps observation? Probably why even the math does not give a definitive beginning. That the universe is finite is just as equal a hypothesis as the hypothesis that it is infinite.

 

[Berzerker]

That's not really the issue. It would be more honest to say 'We don't know'. Certainly more honest than positing dubious claims.

I said its possible and I was asked for a link by somebody else which I provided. That really is the issue.

 

[Agent327]

DP