Existence of God

[Ziggy Stardust]

Did he rape and .... no wait ... lets not go there.

 

[Leoreth]

That's true. Why won't he show his birth certificate? What is he hiding? If he wasn't born in this universe, he has no right to be our god. Palin for God!

No, people who say "You can't prove that God exists, it's impossible!" are wrong. You can prove that God exists, to the same standards that you can prove that anything exists.

Interesting point. I'm currently sceptically questioning my scepticism , because I'm not sure what God, if he existed, would have to do to convince me of that. Reveal some prophecies? I'd rather think I'm going mad. Do some miracles? Illusions, or very advanced technology. That reminded me of the quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from miracles".

I think the logical sticking point here is the difference between logical proof and empirical proof.

Logical proofs are those proofs we know from Augustinus and Anselm of Canterbury. They start from a set of (arguably) obvious axioms and deduce God's existance from there. Note that this proofs often avoid definitely Christian characteristics of God, and rather stick to universal principles applied to him. When people claim "You can't prove God's existence!", they usually refer to this kind of proof, and personally I think they're right.

Empirical proofs are not "proofs" in the strict sense. It just means that when we have observed more or more important for one theory than for another, then the former one is more likely to be true. Many scientifical theories rely on this kind of proof, so that's not a bad thing. And if I would die and find myself in heaven (or hell), then I've suddenly got very decisive empirical proofs for God
The problem with this is: if a theory is constructed to be easily proven by empirical data, it's also easily disproven by it. Scientists, who want to verify their theories, deliberately construct them that way. God, on the other hand, seems to be deliberately created to be difficultly disproven empirically, and so it's also difficult to prove his existence that way.

What if there is no evil in our world? We see lots of things that we call evil because they are unpleasant. Perhaps from the perspective of god they are not. Could we be wrong and see things incorrectly? Is there something special about our pov that it should supersede all others?

First off, this solution at least doesn't work for the Christian God, because he clearly labeled things as evil in the Bible (starting with eating from the tree of knowledge down to the ten commandments), and yet they happened.

More generally though, it could be an interesting solution. But even if you could objectively call everything "not evil", there would still be subjective human suffering. And I find that hard to reconcile with the claim of God's omnibenevolence towards humans.

You raise a very good point here. Without good and evil, how would humans get their life experiences?... We just wouldn't get them! And yet, they make us who we are.

I'll take good and evil over mindless paradise any day of the week. Without good and evil I would have never thrown a rock at that kid's head in grade 1 and learned how horrible and weird it feels to see someone fall down and bleed. I would have never travelled to the southern reaches of this planet and had incredible life experiences hiking in nature. I wouldn't have my first kiss, my first love, my first fight, my first anything.. I would be a totally different person, and we would be a totally different people and totally different species.

So in a way Eve made us who we are. She allowed us to have important life experiences, good and bad, which builds character, and makes us into more interesting and complete people.

Agree!

And interestingly, that's kind of the premise of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials". Hidden beneath a convoluted plot and unnecessary jabs at religion, but still.

 

[warpus]

Interesting point. I'm currently sceptically questioning my scepticism , because I'm not sure what God, if he existed, would have to do to convince me of that. Reveal some prophecies? I'd rather think I'm going mad. Do some miracles? Illusions, or very advanced technology. That reminded me of the quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from miracles".

Well, what does your best friend George have to do to convince you that he is your best friend George? If he looks like George, talks like George, has George's memories, remembers your name, smells like George, etc., then you take that as sufficient proof that he's George, right?

What does a duck have to do to prove to you that it's a duck? Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, craps all over the place, you take that as sufficient reason to assume that it is in fact a duck.

Yahweh's existence is no different. If a guy showed up who had the exact same qualities as the Yahweh in the Bible, then it would be intellectually dishonest of us to say: "Ahh, but we need to use a higher set of standards as proof that you are indeed Yahweh"

Now, proving that this Yahweh guy, who just showed up and convinced us that he's the guy from the Bible, actually created the Universe, exists outside of time, is at all places et once, etc. That's another proof entirely and would require a higher set of standards. But merely agreeing that he is indeed Yahweh, all you need is the same set of standards we'd use to agree that George is George - your best friend.

So yes, it's very possible to show that Yahweh exists. All he has to do is show up and verify that he satisfies all of the qualities as described in the Christian bible. There he is. There's your proof. It's an example of proof of Yahweh's existence, thus it is possible to prove that he exists, assuming you are not talking about proving that he actually created the Universe, or whatever else. That's another proof entirely.

I mean, if the question changes to "Prove that a creator of the Universe exists", that's entirely different type of proof altogether, and would likely be impossible. However, proving that Yahweh, or Thor, or Xenu exists, that's a far easier proposition, and what I am talking about here.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, now I can 100% agree with you