Existing Buildings Discussion

[Actuarian]

Unfortunately that would require a good bit of code for only a few instances. That is why it is this way now.

Fair enough. Keep up the good work - it is much appreciated!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I was going to suggest it myself but figured I'd wait and see if someone else caught on to the idea that struck me as I was writing that post, which you've done.

I've recently made a tag for animals that allows them to enter borders if the tag is true (and it can be done with a promo as well) so I don't want to cut off this potential as I see that tag as meaning 'reckless and willing to enter despite knowing the risk of intruding on human territory' or 'apathetic towards man completely'. The latter is more possible once some more diverse animal ais are developed which is a project on the list.

But this thought, as I said, did occur to me during the writing of that post. I started considering how it could be done but I think it can't really work off of the fire pit because that's a city by city kind of effect and its easier to draw the line at the national borders. So I'm thinking something like that would work for the Controlled Fire national wonder (but it'd also have to be triggered on achieving a tech at some point too because I'm sure the Controlled Fire wonder obsoletes at some point.)

So what does everyone else think? Would it be problematic to allow animals to freely enter borders, even potentially attack the city, until Controlled Fire is built?

I'd rather not see this. As it stands I rarely bother building any seed camps until I have Spiked Clubmen to sit on them and guard against Neanderthal attacks. If animals could penetrate borders I would never build a Gatherer between the free one and Spiked Clubmen (in this case, because they'd need to defend against both animals and Neanderthals).

Which might seem like it means there would be little effect. That isn't true, though. Early on the only way to hunt "safely" is to stand near the edge of your border, pick at animals until your early recon units get too hurt, and pull them in. Restricting that to the city itself would be annoying. Animals passing through your borders would also cause pointless micro as they walked on, and then off of, tiles you wanted to work. It would necessitate going to the city screen after each incursion.

What is the upside here, gameplay-wise?

If it absolutely HAD to happen, I'd rather see it counteracted by the TECH firemaking, not a Wonder.

You might have to give workers a defence strength against them, as they will most likely survive an attack by a duck or a platypus (or even an iguana).

Workers with attack strengths are still a no-go as far as I know.

If you can't come up with a gameplay reason - realism not being a gameplay reason - for why something that would more than quadruple the early-game micro, please don't.

Just another example of the ramifications of bottlenecking all buildings thru Storage pit and Barter Post trend of long building chains.

Agreed. Having to build a Barter Post in a production-specialized city is never going to stop being annoying. Same with having to start every city with a Storage Pit until the Stone Tools Maker goes out of style (admittedly that may be a problem with the STM being a Building that's better than a Wonder), even if the city won't grow for 50 turns.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Agreed. Having to build a Barter Post in a production-specialized city is never going to stop being annoying. Same with having to start every city with a Storage Pit until the Stone Tools Maker goes out of style (admittedly that may be a problem with the STM being a Building that's better than a Wonder), even if the city won't grow for 50 turns.

The whole reorganisation of building requirements was don based on "real world" not game play however it did not go far enough in my opinion in that it did not specify when some buildings would be free in all new cities thus restoring the game fun side. In fact we still have not had hat discussion fully. I will get that thread started again. Although I probably am not making much sence with this head cold and all.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd rather not see this. As it stands I rarely bother building any seed camps until I have Spiked Clubmen to sit on them and guard against Neanderthal attacks. If animals could penetrate borders I would never build a Gatherer between the free one and Spiked Clubmen (in this case, because they'd need to defend against both animals and Neanderthals).

Which might seem like it means there would be little effect. That isn't true, though. Early on the only way to hunt "safely" is to stand near the edge of your border, pick at animals until your early recon units get too hurt, and pull them in. Restricting that to the city itself would be annoying. Animals passing through your borders would also cause pointless micro as they walked on, and then off of, tiles you wanted to work. It would necessitate going to the city screen after each incursion.

What is the upside here, gameplay-wise?

If it absolutely HAD to happen, I'd rather see it counteracted by the TECH firemaking, not a Wonder.



Workers with attack strengths are still a no-go as far as I know.

If you can't come up with a gameplay reason - realism not being a gameplay reason - for why something that would more than quadruple the early-game micro, please don't.

I find realism to be a very good reason provided it also flows with gameplay. I probably would not want to unleash animals within borders until workers did have some combat strength though. In fact, it bothers me that we have units that don't have any combat strength at all as just about all humans CAN at least attempt to defend themselves. Maybe missionaries and execs might be an exception in some cases. Anyhow, the issues in the way of assigning strength to workers and settlers have been identified and its just a matter of getting time to address them. But that'll still be a while yet I think.

 

[Faustmouse]

There are also some buldings that are quite strange.
Some Examples:

Aerospacial National Agency needs Airports, but can't be build with Commercial Airports, which you would most likely have at this time.

River Rouge Complex produces Automobiles, but don't require Tires.

Airports do not require Aircraft, but Commercial Airports do.

Statepark obsoletes with Ecological Engineering, but gets + from Ecological Engineering...

 

[Hydromancerx]

There are also some buldings that are quite strange.
Some Examples:

Aerospacial National Agency needs Airports, but can't be build with Commercial Airports, which you would most likely have at this time.

River Rouge Complex produces Automobiles, but don't require Tires.

Airports do not require Aircraft, but Commercial Airports do.

Statepark obsoletes with Ecological Engineering, but gets + from Ecological Engineering...

1. The code say Military Airbases.

2. That would be something Vokarya would have to fix.

3. Fixed and pushed to the SVN.

4. Fixed and pushed to the SVN.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Faustmouse]

I dont know if that was fixed before, but in V27 vanilla, it says (ingame): 7 military airbases and 7 airports.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yeah I think it has been fixed on the SVN version.

 

[Faustmouse]

I just wanted to build cure of cancer and... wow. It takes me 180 turns (eternity), even in a very good city (my 2nd best). I think your building-cost-adjustment works absolutely fine until and including most of the modern era, but than you don't have so much more production-boosting buildings.

Maybe you should give the Robotics Tech an "+20 Hammers from all Factories" (So, not just Factory, but also Rope Factory, Car Factory, etc"

 

[ls612]

I just wanted to build cure of cancer and... wow. It takes me 180 turns (eternity), even in a very good city (my 2nd best). I think your building-cost-adjustment works absolutely fine until and including most of the modern era, but than you don't have so much more production-boosting buildings.

Maybe you should give the Robotics Tech an "+20 Hammers from all Factories" (So, not just Factory, but also Rope Factory, Car Factory, etc"

That sounds reasonable. 180 turns at that point is ~3-4 years in game-time, so it shows that the cost changes are working. You are playing eternity, you should really expect things to take forever to build.

 

[strategyonly]

I just wanted to build cure of cancer and... wow. It takes me 180 turns (eternity), even in a very good city (my 2nd best). I think your building-cost-adjustment works absolutely fine until and including most of the modern era, but than you don't have so much more production-boosting buildings.

Maybe you should give the Robotics Tech an "+20 Hammers from all Factories" (So, not just Factory, but also Rope Factory, Car Factory, etc"

That sounds reasonable. 180 turns at that point is ~3-4 years in game-time, so it shows that the cost changes are working. You are playing eternity, you should really expect things to take forever to build.

I think whats he's really saying exactly what you said ls612, BUT after that thats when the problems begin for any more buildings not helping out on this stuff, or am i wrong here Faustmouse? You'd have to post something in the Buildings thread, and talk to Hydro about that, i am pretty sure.

 

[ls612]

I think whats he's really saying exactly what you said ls612, BUT after that thats when the problems begin for any more buildings not helping out on this stuff, or am i wrong here Faustmouse? You'd have to post something in the Buildings thread, and talk to Hydro about that, i am pretty sure.

I'm just saying, he's playing Eternity, so he should expect large times for stuff to happen. His numbers equate to 60 turns on Snail and 40 turns on Marathon, to put it in perspective (you play Marathon, right?).

 

[strategyonly]

I'm just saying, he's playing Eternity, so he should expect large times for stuff to happen. His numbers equate to 60 turns on Snail and 40 turns on Marathon, to put it in perspective (you play Marathon, right?).

Correct, but only because of testing purposes, otherwise i'd play on Snail, where its most balanced.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm just saying, he's playing Eternity, so he should expect large times for stuff to happen. His numbers equate to 60 turns on Snail and 40 turns on Marathon, to put it in perspective (you play Marathon, right?).

However you costed the buildings etc based on the idea that production would also be increasing. If it isn't then the costs are wrong.

 

[Faustmouse]

Yeah, that's the point, there is not much production increase in the modern era but the costs increase exponentially.
I expected long building-times, sure. But 180 turns is MUCH more than the 30 turns for alpollo programm or 15 turns for WWs or 2-3 turns for regular buildings (in my production monster city, normal cities need around 10 turns)


Edit:
Another thing I found yesterday: When you research Virtual Reality all the Sport-Buildings go obsolete, resulting in a huge loss of happyness. So, IF Virtual Reality is meant to be a Virtual Reality where you can do all those sports on your computer, why should there be such a big loss in happyness? In fact, it should increase happyness because you can do ALL sports you like, regardless of your abilities or your fear.

 

[Alex Costa]

Well my topic for now is the Carrion. What is the point of that building if you are rarely gonna build it with that +1

 

[BlueGenie]

In case you have extra health it can be worth building for an added food.

Cheers

 

[Alex Costa]

In case you have extra health it can be worth building for an added food.

Cheers

This is usually most of the time you don't have that health and it's a building that obsoletes very early.

 

[ls612]

Yeah, that's the point, there is not much production increase in the modern era but the costs increase exponentially.
I expected long building-times, sure. But 180 turns is MUCH more than the 30 turns for alpollo programm or 15 turns for WWs or 2-3 turns for regular buildings (in my production monster city, normal cities need around 10 turns)


Edit:
Another thing I found yesterday: When you research Virtual Reality all the Sport-Buildings go obsolete, resulting in a huge loss of happyness. So, IF Virtual Reality is meant to be a Virtual Reality where you can do all those sports on your computer, why should there be such a big loss in happyness? In fact, it should increase happyness because you can do ALL sports you like, regardless of your abilities or your fear.

That doesn't make much sense. The XML has the Apollo project costing 16200 hammers, and Cure for Cancer costs 22800 hammers (both are costs before modifiers). How on earth is there a sixfold difference in their build times (I assume this is in the same city, right?).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well my topic for now is the Carrion. What is the point of that building if you are rarely gonna build it with that +1

Carrion is a NIMBY building to tech new players that not every building is worth building. To show you that unlike vanilla we do have some buildings that look tempting but maybe you should not build them.

Edit:
Another thing I found yesterday: When you research Virtual Reality all the Sport-Buildings go obsolete, resulting in a huge loss of happyness. So, IF Virtual Reality is meant to be a Virtual Reality where you can do all those sports on your computer, why should there be such a big loss in happyness? In fact, it should increase happyness because you can do ALL sports you like, regardless of your abilities or your fear.

Its been well established that the late games buildings are neither complete or balanced yet. Since more people play the early eras we have that part of the mod much more polished and balanced. Eventually he Modern, Trans-Human and Galactic eras will be balanced too. But until then we have some weird stuff happening where things don't balance or obsolete right yet so late into the game.