Fall Further Plus

[Quetz]

Racism in Erebus! Someone call the NAAHP!

 

[far_wanderer]

I see there's a new thread for discussing the Slayer promotions, but it didn't mention Mounted Infantry, so I'll bring that up here.

If you're going to do mounted infantry, it shouldn't be exclusive to the Bannor. Several months ago I brought up an idea like this:

I came up with an idea a lot like this back during the discussion about removing War Chariots, and have since worked on fine-tuning it. The basic idea is to remove all mounted units except for Chariots and War Chariots, and instead add a 'Horse' unit that could be sacrificed to add the mounted promotion to any non-mounted land unit. Mounted gave units +2 movement, +20% withdrawal chance, cannot receive defensive bonuses, and -50% in cities. That way you could mount units to give them more mobility, but would have to dismount (which would take a turn) to be able to do much against cities. The chariots lost their withdrawal chance and instead gained Fear.
I also came up with some variations for the different civs and for captured animals

Spoiler :

Mounts – Strength 0, Move 1, Cost 80, requires:
Horse – Horses
Nomad Horse (Hippus)– Horses
Wolf (Clan of Embers, Doviello)– Sheep
Deer (Elves) – Deer
Boar (Dwarves) – Pigs
Camel (Malakim) – Horse
Centaur (Kuriotates) – None
Nightmare – Nightmare

Benefit: (all except Griffon give -50% in cities, all except Centaur and Giant Tortoise lose defensive bonuses)
Horse, Wolf, Deer, Boar, Tiger, Lion – 20% withdrawal chance, move +2.
Nomad Horse – 30% withdrawal chance, move +3.
Nightmare – 20% withdrawal chance, move +2, +10% in hell terrain.
Griffon – 20% withdrawal chance, move +2, Flying, -25% in cities.
Elephant – Move +1, strength +3.
Camel – 20% withdrawal chance, move +2, +10% in desert.
Centaur – 20% withdrawal chance, move +1, can receive defensive bonuses.
Bear – Move +1, strength +1, 10% withdrawal chance.
Sea Serpent – Move +1, strength +3, water walking.
Giant Spider – Move +1, 20% withdrawal chance, gains Stealth.
Giant Tortoise – Strength +2, water walking, can receive defensive bonuses.

It would need considerable updating (camels actually exist as a resource now, for example), but that's an example of an actual mounted infantry system.

 

[Opera]

Interesting idea. A pain to implement because of all the modifications, though. But quite easy to do, I think. I know there is such "mounted"/"dismounted" thing in Orbis...

However, what do you do of the mounted techline? I don't see anymore relevant use for them with this system.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I see there's a new thread for discussing the Slayer promotions, but it didn't mention Mounted Infantry, so I'll bring that up here.

If you're going to do mounted infantry, it shouldn't be exclusive to the Bannor. Several months ago I brought up an idea like this:

It would need considerable updating (camels actually exist as a resource now, for example), but that's an example of an actual mounted infantry system.

That is a great idea...but it is way beyond the scope of what I was trying to do.

My mission was to give Bannor interesting, thematic mechanics in the early, middle, and late game. I'm not opposed to the system you propose (although working on the artstyles for every possible unit would be a nightmare of biblical proportions)...heck I'd love to see someone (not me, please) do the work.

 

[far_wanderer]

Interesting idea. A pain to implement because of all the modifications, though. But quite easy to do, I think. I know there is such "mounted"/"dismounted" thing in Orbis...

However, what do you do of the mounted techline? I don't see anymore relevant use for them with this system.

Armored Cavalry goes away, Stirrups and Warhorses lead to Chariots and War Chariots, as well as allowing some of the better mounts. They would need to be renamed.

That is a great idea...but it is way beyond the scope of what I was trying to do.

My mission was to give Bannor interesting, thematic mechanics in the early, middle, and late game. I'm not opposed to the system you propose (although working on the artstyles for every possible unit would be a nightmare of biblical proportions)...heck I'd love to see someone (not me, please) do the work.

Art was the reason I never got around to trying out this idea. I can do crazy amounts of XML coding, but I'm at a loss as soon as art enters the picture.
As far as your original idea, what about some unit promotions that only apply during a crusade? That would give you the expanded mechanics you want, but without a lot of lore conflicts people have been having. Alternatively (or additionally), you could focus on the connection between the Bannor and Order, and give them UUs of some of the Order units.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

As far as your original idea, what about some unit promotions that only apply during a crusade? That would give you the expanded mechanics you want, but without a lot of lore conflicts people have been having. Alternatively (or additionally), you could focus on the connection between the Bannor and Order, and give them UUs of some of the Order units.

Several reasons for that.

1. I think my changes make sense with the lore...and MC hasn't come in and explained how wrong I am yet. i consider that a good sign.

2. I was looking for early, middle, and late mechanics. Early: Clerics, slayer. Middle: Tempered bonuses start to be useful, mounted infantry. Late: Crusade

3. I don't want to shoehorn the Bannor into Order. If a player wants to play a game with the Bannor as evil crusaders for Bhall (AV)...well, good on them. Nothing prevents that.

 

[Valkrionn]

I agree with Vermicious here, the Bannor are shoehorned enough as it is. If you notice, even Eidolons are able to mount up now.

I like you mounted idea, but there is no artwork for it so it's not likely to happen. I'm going to need enough art as it is.

 

[far_wanderer]

I agree with Vermicious here, the Bannor are shoehorned enough as it is. If you notice, even Eidolons are able to mount up now.

I like you mounted idea, but there is no artwork for it so it's not likely to happen. I'm going to need enough art as it is.

I didn't really expect you to implement the mounted idea, I was just pointing out that if you want to bring mounted infantry in as a concept, it shouldn't be so limited and it then raises the question of just what the actual mounted units are. Also, you should have a 'dismount' option.

Several reasons for that.

1. I think my changes make sense with the lore...and MC hasn't come in and explained how wrong I am yet. i consider that a good sign.

2. I was looking for early, middle, and late mechanics. Early: Clerics, slayer. Middle: Tempered bonuses start to be useful, mounted infantry. Late: Crusade

3. I don't want to shoehorn the Bannor into Order. If a player wants to play a game with the Bannor as evil crusaders for Bhall (AV)...well, good on them. Nothing prevents that.

1. My lore disputes with your ideas are entirely limited to the slayer promotions, and are happening on that thread. I really like the mounted infantry idea, I just don't want it limited to the Bannor.

2. I see what you mean about early mechanics. Instead of slayer promotions for each race (or civ), what about a promotion that requires you to be at war, and goes away when you make peace? So while you're in a war, you can have a military advantage, but when you make peace you're down a promotion. Sort of like a unit-specific mini-crusade. That gets at my crusade thought but still keeps it available early like you want.

3. Eh, it was a thought. Less shoehorning is a good thing.

 

[Valkrionn]

I believe they DO have a dismount spell..... have to check again, haven't got around to merging it yet. Waiting to see what changes I'll make.

If I decide to go with the mechanic I outlined in the other thread, the bonus will go away when you're no longer at war.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Yup, dismount is there and works.

 

[Valkrionn]

Left to do:

1. Allow Goliath to change his unitcombat. Done
2. Merge in Monstrous Creatures, and balance Goliath along the same lines. Done
3. New immortal unit for the Mechanos, basically smaller goliath. Done
4. New Siege promotion line, Mechanos/Machinarum religious units only. Basically combat 1-5, rather than city attack.
5. Tie some more Techpriest abilities to appropriate technologies. Scorch/Spring for Elementalism, for example. They may not do it the same way, but they need the ability and the mana line needs to have SOME use for them. Done
6. Add Disciple/Priest for the new religion Done. Only allowed the Adeptus.
7. Bring in Boris as the religion hero, unavailable to Mechanos
8. Add new Zeppelin hero, Lenora. (Vinci FTW )
9. Change Ironclad to Khazad only, give the Mechanos the Zeppelin.
10. Bring in Warkirby's new unit artwork. Done. Merged in all but the Pegasus riders for now.... D'tesh has it's own artstyle now, only difference with Infernals is they still have Skeleton Warriors while the Infernals now have Mane Warriors.
11. Add Machinarum-specific music. - Musics in, just need to add the era so it will play correctly. Done.
12. Balance changes for the Doviello - Patch item, decided to lump it with the inevitable Mechanos balancing. Want to release.

Why isn't that already implemented? The WH would make a nice religion for anyone to adopt.

I would love to see a scenario where AV has ruined the world and threatens to destroy all and only the ultimate force of the White Hand and winter can stop it.

Essentially, using one great evil power to fight the other.

Here's what I have in mind for the White Hand, already asked if I could use it as the pedia text:

I've been busy with a particularly epic (if still incomplete) game that inspired two rather bizarre stories.

Spoiler Paradise :

Everything was destroyed. Johnathon's home city had been turned to ash by a single, terrible man who dressed as a king and warped minds with words. His family was dead. The Bannor empire was crumbling, and he knew it. The Hell they had escaped those many years ago had come for them, and this time, it was succeeding. But Johnathon had escaped, and fled to seek the single glimmer of hope that shined in the black night of the living hell Erebus had become.

He and a ragged band of survivors were seeking something that was only spoken of in whispers and rumors: the Paradise. A land untouched by Hell, if only they could slip unnoticed through Balseraph territory. It was probably a rumor, a fool's dream, if not an outright trap. But what else was there? Foolish dreams, at least, were better than despair. Those who died did so believing that their children, brethren, or friends might make it to Paradise instead.

Nobody prayed. Junil had failed. Lugus had forsaken them. Kilmorph gave nothing. Some had even turned in desperation to the Overlords, but they had also given up Erebus to the might of Agares. But it was said that even Agares himself could not touch Paradise.

To pass the time, the survivors swapped stories of woe; there were no other kinds. An elderly man, among the oldest of the group but still relatively healthy, said, “I hear the Doviello fell. Utterly destroyed. Never thought I'd be so sad to hear that news.” There were nods of agreement; the beastmen had been as fierce and unforgiving as animals, but at least they were better than the Infernals.

There was a time of silence, then another piped in. “They say there's a fourth horseman. It's only a guess... something has been leaving a trail of devastation worse than the other three. No prisoners, no survivors, villages just... disappear.” Things were getting worse and worse.

Said yet another, “can't be any nastier than the third. Disease and death followed him everywhere... I've only heard, people who actually see him tend to die horrible deaths from the diseases... provided he doesn't kill them first.”

A younger man put in what he'd heard: “they say the first horseman, the King, tried to invade Paradise.” Gasps and murmurs of horror. “But they killed him! Yeah, they killed him and took his crown! Been getting ready to do the same to the other two... three now, I guess.” Most wanted the tale to be true, but doubted it. Could the Horsemen be slain at all?

Said another, “even if so, what about the Balseraphs? They're near as bad as the Infernals. Think it's all just some grand game, love nothing more than torturing people. Break their souls, make them worship Agares so they can turn them into demons. But not before breaking their bodies and minds... entertainment, they reckon it is. Horrifying. Every Balseraph is just a demon in a human-shaped egg, says I.” Nods of agreement.

They'd encountered Balseraphs before, a few times, and each had been a desperate fight. The survivors couldn't afford to take prisoners or leave any Balseraphs to report their existence, and they dare not be captured alive themselves, so each encounter was a savage struggle to the death. After the first encounter, cannibalism had also become accepted policy; they couldn't afford to waste food or leave bodies.

There was a change in the plains of ash ahead. The eldest of the group smiled from ear to ear. “Come on!” he yelled as he ran, with suprising speed, towards what seemed to be another ashen plain. The rest of the group, inspired if somewhat confused, tried to keep pace.

When the old man reached the change in ash, he scooped the new stuff up. Except it wasn't ash. It was a strange, pure white powder, which the old man clumped into a ball and, grinning like a child, threw at Johnathon. It was cold, and upon touching Johnathon, began to turn into water. “Snow!” the old man yelled. “It's snow! It's been too long since I've seen snow!” He laughed and danced. “This is it! We've made it! The Illian Empire! Hell has no power here! Paradise!”

The air grew cold surprisingly fast as the group dragged itself towards the promised land. A rabbit, white as the snow around it, examined them. It was the first non-demonic animal they had seen for months, sometimes years. The youngest Bannor stared, half expecting it to bare razor sharp teeth, spit fire at them, or roar. But it seemed as frightened of them as they were of it.

A hunter, previously invisible, swathed in furs, appeared and speared the creature. He grabbed his catch, then noticed the ragged band approaching. “More refugees? By Auric... luckily for you, I've been told we need all the hands we can get, but first things first. Listen up, and listen well. I am to have you take the Oath.” The group stopped, and listened. “Do you agree to abandon your old gods?” The survivors nodded. One said, “they abandoned us first!” “So they did,” said the hunter. “Do you agree to serve Auric, in this world and the next?” Again, they gave their consent. “Do you agree to abide by the laws and customs of the Illian people?” And again, they agreed. “Then I welcome you...” the hunter couldn't even finish his sentence before the group cheered.

 

[far_wanderer]

Left to do:

• New immortal unit for the Mechanos, basically smaller goliath.
• Add Machinarum-specific music.

Here's what I have in mind for the White Hand, already asked if I could use it as the pedia text:

New immortal unit as in a unit with similar requirements (like the Scion Abomination)? Or as in a unit that is resurrected if it dies?

If you can find it, some of the Terran music from Starcraft would be pretty awesome for Machinarium music. It would also be cool to include CivIIIModCeltic (it's in the Warlords sound folder) as a reference to the modern era of regular Civ.

I love the plan for the White Hand. Be sure to change Hellish Ice to not spawn demons if that's the way you're going with this. Also, the White Hand should have a Membership Civic with some minor bonuses for Ice terrain, otherwise it will be impossible for other civs to actually survive under it.

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually have the music lined up, just gotta put it in... Fits with some other music in the game, and I like it. Mostly from Silent Hill.....

 

[TitanZ]

Here's what I have in mind for the White Hand, already asked if I could use it as the pedia text:

That is beautiful. Cheers to KillerClown!

Very intrigued by the WH. So, will this be where anyone can convert to the WH, but only the Illians can found it. Seems it should have a serious alignment hit and AC requirement, and possibly even becoming a vassal of Auric.

 

[Valkrionn]

New immortal unit as in a unit with similar requirements (like the Scion Abomination)? Or as in a unit that is resurrected if it dies?

Forgot to mention, directly buildable but not immortal, like with the Abom.

That is beautiful. Cheers to KillerClown!

Very intrigued by the WH. So, will this be where anyone can convert to the WH, but only the Illians can found it. Seems it should have a serious alignment hit and AC requirement, and possibly even becoming a vassal of Auric.

It won't be in the next version, but basically yes. Everyone can adopt it, but only the Illians can found it. Probably through their White Hand ritual. I'm thinking AI civs should become vassals, possibly human as well if I could figure out how to code it.

 

[Valkrionn]

Anyone want to suggest a name for the Mechanos Immortal UU? It's basically a mech. Using Vulture temporarily.... From MechAssault, of course.

 

[far_wanderer]

Anyone want to suggest a name for the Mechanos Immortal UU? It's basically a mech. Using Vulture temporarily.... From MechAssault, of course.

Arcturus Walker, Thunder, Prometheus Engine, and Compensator all come to mind. Prometheus Engine is probably my favorite of those.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I don't think that auto vasalisation would be a good thing for the white hand.
The way I see it, who ever fallows it, meens that the said leader is compeating for the place as the righfull heir of Mulican.

Technicly, the religion should focus on freezing the world to return to the "Good old days".
Maybe as a neat alternative to the hot and flaming hell poping up all round us.

It should have a completely diferent meening to normal civs than it has to the Ilians.

Alternatively, as someone said on the Asimilating Erebus thread:
"The ice queen will have peace! Even if it meens freezing the world to do it."

 

[Valkrionn]

Making a new post here to detail Goliath and the 'Vulture' UU. Goliath is VERY strong, but so are all the other Monstrous Creatures, thanks to Warkirby.

Goliath:

1. Melee Unit
2. 300
3. Requires Alchemy and Mithril Working
4. 28
5. 9 Ranged , 50% ranged damage limit
6. 4
7. 1 Range
8. 2 First Strikes
9. No Defense Bonus
10. Ignores Terrain Movement Cost
11. Starts with :
    • Hero
    • Magic Immune
    • Mechanical
      • Refined Mana Affinity
    • Resident Machine Spirit
      • 20% chance to grant Machine Spirit each turn.
        • 50% chance of wearing off.
        • +1
        • +1 Range
        • +20% Collateral
        • +1
        • Suffers 25% less Collateral
    • Monstrous Creature (From Warkirby's Monstrous Creatures Module)
      • Flat terrain movement cost (can't use roads, but isn't slowed by forests/hills either)
      • Ignores terrain defence on attack
      • Doesn't recieve defensive bonuses
      • Causes Collateral Damage. Up to 6 targets, with no damage limit. Can kill!
      • +25% vs Melee
      • -25% vs Archery units
      • -50% vs Siege Weapons
      • +25% City defence
      • Immune to collateral damage
      • +1 visibility range
      • 50% poison resistance
12. Can use the Siege Configuration ability.
    • 3 turn delay
    • Grants the Siege Configuration promotion.
      • Changes UnitCombat to Siege
      • -14 Attack , -7 Defense
      • +7 Ranged
      • +50% Ranged Damage Limit, to a total of 100%
      • +90% Collateral Damage
      • +5 Collateral Targets
      • -1
      • +1 Range
      • +50% City Bombard
      • -2 First Strikes
      • +5 City Defense when stationed in a city.
      • Allows Melee Configuration ability.
        • 3 turn delay.
        • Removes the Siege Configuration promotion.

Vulture (Immortal UU):

• Melee Unit
• 280
• Requires Divine Essence
• 6 Attack , 9 Defensive
• 5 Ranged , 50% limit
• Refined Mana Affinity
• 2
• 1 Range
• Starts with Fear, Magic Immune
• Not Immortal, directly buildable.

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't think that auto vasalisation would be a good thing for the white hand.
The way I see it, who ever fallows it, meens that the said leader is compeating for the place as the righfull heir of Mulican.

Technicly, the religion should focus on freezing the world to return to the "Good old days".
Maybe as a neat alternative to the hot and flaming hell poping up all round us.

It should have a completely diferent meening to normal civs than it has to the Ilians.

Alternatively, as someone said on the Asimilating Erebus thread:
"The ice queen will have peace! Even if it meens freezing the world to do it."

I see it more as people coming to the Illians as beggars, hoping they can save their empire from Hell. That's entirely from KillerClown's amazing story though.