Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Vehem]

oooh cheeky! I was wondering if something similar could be given to the Malakim in desert terrain? The thinking being that most civs would use caravan routes, whilst the Malakim would be happier off the beaten track using their desert lore to navigate around and move across dunes that to other civs would be impassable.

One of the tags Xienwolf added was "PrereqTerrain" - can easily be setup to grant any promotion effect you like to the Malakim if in the desert and automatically remove it if they move out.

Did I mention that Xien did a top notch job with these prereqs?

===

The question simply becomes "what should the promotion do specifically?"

 

[MagisterCultuum]

oooh cheeky! I was wondering if something similar could be given to the Malakim in desert terrain? The thinking being that most civs would use caravan routes, whilst the Malakim would be happier off the beaten track using their desert lore to navigate around and move across dunes that to other civs would be impassable.

I believe that would not be hard at all to implement.


I'd still prefer if you followed Dom Pedro's lead and allowed promotions to grant different types of invisibility, and to make different invisible visible. It should take very different types of abilities to see something that is invisible because it is submerged, hiding in forests, hiding in sands, "bend[ing] light around your body, creat[ing] an illusion on your body of the surface behind it or simply trick[ing] the mind of the person looking at you so that they don't think they see you."

 

[Vehem]

I'd still prefer if you followed Dom Pedro's lead and allowed promotions to grant different types of invisibility, and to make different invisible visible. It should take very different types of abilities to see something that is invisible because it is submerged, hiding in forests, hiding in sands, "bend[ing] light around your body, creat[ing] an illusion on your body of the surface behind it or simply trick[ing] the mind of the person looking at you so that they don't think they see you."

Already on that - we were discussing it earlier. Didn't realise DPII had already done it though so that might be worth a look.

 

[Vehem]

The XP bonus for units created by Planar gates is bugged.

Python traceback:
File "CvEventInterface", line 23, onEvent
File "CvCustomEventManager", line 135, in handleEvent
File "CvCustomEventManager", line 146, in_handleDefaultEvent
File "CvEventManager", line 2155, in onCityDoTurn
Argument Error: Python argument types in CyUnit.setExerpience(CyUnit, int) did not match C++ signature
set Experience(Class CyUnit {lvalue}, int, int)


Save attached.

Thanks - was missing a "-1" from the end of the SetExperience. Fixed for PatchA

all I can say about 0.42 is wow! just when I was starting to think that merging DCM with FFH would be the best thing ever, you go and add ranged attack to FF

it's awesome, and I like hbar's idea of linking the "drill" promotions ( currently kinda useless ) to this new ability.

I'm currently playing a game and a couple of things happened that seemed kinda strange so they may be bugs or not:

1) is it normal that my starting scout with Austrin killed a polar bear and gained something like 3 or 4 levels with just that single fight?

Can be - though 4 levels would be a lot... There shouldn't be anything unusual about XP gain from animals though - not something I've played around with. The amount depends on the combat odds - you can get 6 or 7 levels from a fluke Orthus kill for instance.

2) I popped a goody hut with a rogue ( noble difficulty ) , and it gave me hunting+some beakers towards the tech I was researching ( fishing IIRC ) . is that correct?

That one is a bug - and is fixed in PatchA (was awarding Tech AND Beakers).

edit: also, the user interface seems to be pre-FFH 0.33, with the icons for somnium and scenarios replaced by corporations and espionage. the city screen looks different from FFH 0.33 IIRC. is this intended?

The buttons should have been the same as FfH033, but when I did the pull to collect all the changed files, the version control decided that Kael's files were older and used the defaults instead. Not sure why, but I've spoken to it now and it promises to do it properly in future (fixed in PatchA). The City Screen does look a little different - Xienwolf has been working on the interfaces for a while now and a few things are reworked to make better use of space and minimize overlaps. Still a work in progress I think, but looks good for now.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Can be - though 4 levels would be a lot... There shouldn't be anything unusual about XP gain from animals though - not something I've played around with. The amount depends on the combat odds - you can get 6 or 7 levels from a fluke Orthus kill for instance.
now.

I see, I guess the odds of my scout defeating the almighty bear must have been narrow but he still somehow managed to do it and got rewarded for his bravery. nice

and nice to know that a patch is on its way already. you guys rock

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yep, that is already in Conqueror's Delight. He also changed the invisibility types themselves so that they can apply only on certain features/terrains/hills. Xienwolf's changes have kinda made this technically unnecessary, but it would cut down on the number of promotions with processor intensive bMustMaintain tags. He still only lets each promotion grant/see one type of invisibility, but you can easily give a unit multiple promotions to let the unit see different types.


There is a lot of other stuff (puppet states, trading units through diplomacy, naval movement based on map size, home city/nationality, etc) I'd still like to see you borrow too, mostly as game options.

 

[Vehem]

I see, I guess the odds of my scout defeating the almighty bear must have been narrow but he still somehow managed to do it and got rewarded for his bravery. nice

and nice to know that a patch is on its way already. you guys rock

Might be worth checking how narrow it was - take a look at his UnitStats (select the Unit and press U) - his "Luckiest Fight" is one of the things that is tracked.

He still only lets each promotion grant/see one type of invisibility, but you can easily give a unit multiple promotions to let the unit see different types.

Xienwolf was looking at having it array based with a given promotion allowing you to have multiple Invisibility types (requiring that you had all of the abilities to see the unit - LAND/ANIMAL would need a Hawk/Hunter combo) or see multiple Invisibility types (allowing for units like Radiant Guard to observe most invisible units easily). Not sure yet if DPII's code allows for multiple promotions to combine to produce that kinda of effect, but we'll look into it.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Might be worth checking how narrow it was - take a look at his UnitStats (select the Unit and press U) - his "Luckiest Fight" is one of the things that is tracked.

problem is, he's not my unit anymore. I started Austrin but then a random event allowed me to control the good elves instead and I accepted, so I know nothing of that scout now. is there any other way to check?

 

[Vehem]

problem is, he's not my unit anymore. I started Austrin but then a random event allowed me to control the good elves instead and I accepted, so I know nothing of that scout now. is there any other way to check?

Not other than using an autosave. If he'd just died he'd probably be remembered in the high scores, but as you've changed civ I don't think you can find out easily anymore.

Was only for amusement value anyway

 

[Teg_Navanis]

If you're really interested, try this. The UnitStats data is not deleted when you switch civs, which means that it should be retrievable (unless the ScriptData of units it is not stored for scenarios).

 

[arkham4269]

[*]It also means that siege units, equipment and ships would be immune to being targetted by assassins. This is the real feature we're after.

Well as much as I would hate to have my cannons killed by assassins, it does make more sense that they could do so, as well as the same w/ships. One or two people sneaking in and either torching the ship or setting the cannon's gunpowder stores alight. That sounds more realistic than them going in and killing some weakened melee unit. I mean how would the do this? Poison their food? If so, they could strike any unit.

My only beef is the problem with the weakest is a lot of time in sieges, that unit ends up being a worker. I don't want to 'waste' an attack on a worker, especially since I'd rather capture it when I take the city. I think either non-combat units should be exempt or maybe see if there is some way you could pick your target.

 

[arkham4269]

I'd definitely appreciate feedback on this one. With the relative weakness of the ranged strike, it'll be very rare that any single unit can bring the target down to the limit.

I don't have a lot of experience with this, but after remembering that I never got around to actually play the FfH: Age of Ice scenario with BTS, I played it and soon found that an army w/o archers to counter-barrage an enemy ended up seriously dead quickly. So it forced a combined-arms by necessity. While this could be a pain, it's also very, very realistic.

That being said, I think there should be some spell (air?) that helps protect/repel these attacks. I always found, in my D&D days, that mages often were better as 'combat support' in using their magic to blur their own fighters, causing the enemy to trip or drop their weapons or the like then being offensive in their own right. What does better? That one fireball or the haste that helps the entire stack. If you can make wind to push a ship, you should be able to blunt arrows coming in.

Plus, as I said in a previous post, cannons should have access to a "Canister" promotion since while catapults and trebechets are good siege weapons, they really aren't very good versus ground troops. This isn't the case with canons, just ask the men who survived Pickett's Charge.

Of course I still think you might want to have 'bombards' that are slow and made mostly for as siege weapons and later have canons which are faster and more of field artillery in that "Queen of Battle" sort of way.

 

[Vehem]

I don't have a lot of experience with this, but after remembering that I never got around to actually play the FfH: Age of Ice scenario with BTS, I played it and soon found that an army w/o archers to counter-barrage an enemy ended up seriously dead quickly. So it forced a combined-arms by necessity. While this could be a pain, it's also very, very realistic.

If I recall correctly (and it has been a while since I played it) - the AoI barrage was a collateral attack that effected multiple units in the target tile. A simple ranged attack will only effect a single target, which means each archer can only inflict a little damage on one unit. You will (hopefully) need a large number of archers to completely weaken an enemy stack.

The main use for the ability is to weaken stacks about to attack a city. A small reduction in combat strength when attacking a city can make a real difference to the result with all the bonuses the defenders already get. It's also useful for tilting the odds slightly for melee units in the wild.

If we start seeing archery stacks of doom, then something has gone wrong and it'll need reworking. I'm working toward a fun, playable mechanic here rather than pure realism (though I agree that having good archers was second in importance only to having a good number of heavy cavalry in actual dark-age warfare).

That being said, I think there should be some spell (air?) that helps protect/repel these attacks. I always found, in my D&D days, that mages often were better as 'combat support' in using their magic to blur their own fighters, causing the enemy to trip or drop their weapons or the like then being offensive in their own right. What does better? That one fireball or the haste that helps the entire stack. If you can make wind to push a ship, you should be able to blunt arrows coming in.

I like the idea here - could be implemented as a temporary bonus vs Archery units or something a little smarted. I'll have a think about it.

Plus, as I said in a previous post, cannons should have access to a "Canister" promotion since while catapults and trebechets are good siege weapons, they really aren't very good versus ground troops. This isn't the case with canons, just ask the men who survived Pickett's Charge.

Of course I still think you might want to have 'bombards' that are slow and made mostly for as siege weapons and later have canons which are faster and more of field artillery in that "Queen of Battle" sort of way.

I pondered briefly about field guns and close bombardment earlier. It comes back to the "second line" of units that was suggested for the archers - we could easily split the siege line into field and true siege lines. I'm just not sure how much we'd gain in terms of gameplay compared to realism.

The "canister" idea is interesting though and could be implemented in the same manner as the crews for ships. A cannon could be rigged at the forge for either field work (canister), heavy siege (heavy shot) or something in between (small shot, hollow shot etc). The decision would be made whilst the gun was still in the city and could only be changed if returned to a city, but the promotion would offer different abilities in the field. Even better, one of the promotions from Xienwolf's work would allow the promotion to rename the unit "Siege Cannon" or "Field Cannon" as appropriate. There's no need to match it too closely to real world constructions either - dwarven ingenuity will come up with plenty of new ways to hurl big balls of metal using explosives.

In this case I'd leave Catapults and Trebuchets as they are and add this sort of feature as a "perk" of the cannons.

 

[Ahriman]

Not sure if this is a FF bug or a FFH bug. Playing as Sheaim, Spectres disappear as soon as they are created. Check the save, mage in the far NW of the Sheaim territory.
Maybe a bug with the Summoner trait?

 

[vivictius]

Looking good. One thing I noticed with the siege changes (low str but large % bonuse wrt cities) is it greatly decreases the value of combat promotions for them. For example, 20% from combat I is +2 str for a 10 str unit but only +.4 str for a 2 str unit.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Do we know much about the "Mindless Guardians" that protected the tower? Were they simply golems or something animated by magics within the tower? If it's the former they'd probably be destroyed in the breakout, but the latter leaves us some interesting options.

id vote havign the Tower of Eyes as a feature, which provides Mind Mana but spawns barbarian golems (of varying strength if possible) with summon limits of 2 turns (allowing them to only move 2 squares away from it) have it so that units can 'explore' the tower as with graveyards, but not destroy it, until one result stops the golems spawning. other results could be granting the unit sentry 1 2 or 3, giving them an artefact... or accidentally destroying the mind mana source.

probably a lot more work than youd want to do for a Feature, but thats all my ideas for that one

another one id vote for is a 'sunken city' atlantis like feature of Danalins favoured merfolk, which starts 2 squares from the coast. provides water mana and/or a special option from danalin's astrological sign event such as 'finds the fossilised remains of a mysterious fish/person. this must be a sign from Danalin' which leads down a small even chain... or even just have the Sunken City give all naval units built there a 'Danalin's Faithful' promotion giving them +1 move and +1 defence strength.

 

[xienwolf]

Not sure if this is a FF bug or a FFH bug. Playing as Sheaim, Spectres disappear as soon as they are created. Check the save, mage in the far NW of the Sheaim territory.
Maybe a bug with the Summoner trait?

Doesn't seem to be just the summoner Trait, all non-permanent summons are being insta-gibbed

EDIT: Found the problem. It is my "clean approach" to programming which is at fault here I don't use brackets for one-liner IF statements, but I forgot to put them in place when I added a line that the 33 update required. Thus all temporary units were killed as soon as they did a start of turn function (which all summons do instantly upon creation)

 

[arkham4269]

Even better, one of the promotions from Xienwolf's work would allow the promotion to rename the unit "Siege Cannon" or "Field Cannon" as appropriate. There's no need to match it too closely to real world constructions either - dwarven ingenuity will come up with plenty of new ways to hurl big balls of metal using explosives.

In this case I'd leave Catapults and Trebuchets as they are and add this sort of feature as a "perk" of the cannons.

Yeah, it would be easy to go nuts with the promotions. I was just thinking that the whole point of the promotion system was to customize your forces. If I'm playing the dwarves, I might not want as may bombard or collateral damage promotions since I have access to hordes of golems with blasting so I might want the opportunity to make my canons more field guns, especially if you're playing on a big map with long travel distances between cities. Lots of time to get killed creeping along at one hex a turn, especially against Civ's like the Hippus.

The 'canister' promotion would really only be the artillery equivalent of the plus vs melee and/or archery units. Maybe instead of a offensive promotion (since you have that already with Combat I+) it might act as upping your defensive bonus since the as I alluded to about Pickett's Charge, going into an attack against canister shot is downright painful.

BTW, on the subject of canons, ships and more 'realistic' tech, any idea when we might expect (if ever) more fantasy versions of the same? I've always wanted to see more of the outlandish Warhammer-esque artillery and more fanciful gunpowder weapons. I guess I'm hoping for something like a fantasy version of what you see here http://www.sillof.com/C-Steampunk-SW.htm in the sense of taking ordinary weapons and armor and putting some flare in them.

 

[fobboy]

I have an idea. Wouldn't it be better, rather than summoning a fireball and controlling it like a unit, to have it as a bombard icon? You can click the unit you want to attack and the animation will be some mage throwing a fireball at a unit (reuse some of the animation from the red dragon breathing fire in his regular attack). It's a lot cooler than controlling a fireball as a unit. Is this hard to mod in?

 

[xienwolf]

Or we could go the other way around and have all the archers summon an Arrow unit instead of doing a ranged attack (I joke)


Shouldn't be too hard to mod in, the only trick would be making the ability to do a ranged attack be granted by a spell and instantly triggered (then revoked), and it would make it impossible for a mage to launch a fireball to weaken a defender, then attack himself to clean up for XP.