Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Vehem]

I'd like to second Magister's request for updated palace mana. At the very least, the civs that belong to the new mana types (Sheiam for Dimensional, Kuriotates for Creation, Doviello for Force, and Illian for Ice) should be fixed to have it.

Aye - did those this morning, with the exception that Grigori got Force (Doviello are Camulos/War/Chaos aren't they?). I was playing a game with the Kuriotates earlier, and the Creation mana helps nicely with the health issues provided you find plenty of health resources anyway (the grain/animal resources are +2 health each with granary/smokehouse, and +3 each total with Growth).

Speaking of, please, please, please make the Sheiam Death, Dimensional, Fire, not Death, Dimensional, Chaos... Nothing against Chaos mana, but the Sheiam really benefit from having Fire mana from their palace, and it seems more appropriate to them than Chaos.

I must admit I'd originally done it the latter way, purely so that they still got the occasional mutant. In hindsight, that might not be entirely thematic for them - I do tend to associate the mutation with them because they're "the bad guys" rather than anything concrete in the lore. Death was kept as they will generally benefit from a strong summoning line - but I'll go with public consensus on Fire vs Chaos - anyone else have an opinion?

Also, as an aside, what was the reasoning for making Reagents revealed by Sorcery? I'm not completely against the idea, but it is odd to have them as such a late game resource (compared to what they were before, I mean)...

That was one of Xienwolf's tweaks, and I think it was primarily to give an incentive for the Magic oriented civs to use Dowsing early on in the game (same way that Melee oriented benefit from hunting for Iron etc). Incense could probably have done the same (being a strategic resource that happens to have decent yields, rather than a luxury resource like Silk or Dye), but I'd chosen to make that part of the Malakim/Nomad mechanic by that point.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

some minor suggestions for the next patch : forgive me if I had already posted some of these, sometimes my memory is hazy

I'm loving the new deer resource in grassland forests , but it seems too common right now, making it a bit more rare would be better imho. especially if you play with Erebus mapscript that has LOTS of forests at map generation. and arctic deer spawning in snow ( not just tundra ) would be nice and make those useless places a bit better, especially if you had the bad luck of starting there ( Illians come to mind )

furthermore, pigs only spawning in very hot climates and latitudes are weird and if you play with flavourmod enabled dwarves tend to get placed in very hot climates that aren't really fitting to their theme. so I think a new "boar" resource, similar to the distinction between deer/arctic deer, would be nice. make boar spawn in forested plains and maybe even no-forest plains and let dwarves build boar-riders with both pigs and boars, BUT have them start near boars in the flavourinterface.py file, so that they always start in places very fitting to their theme and preferences. then you could add a bonus for boars to the hunting lodge. oh, and I still think that if you have BOTH deer and arctic deer, you should still get just +1 health and not +2, but that's very very minor

Mazatl should start near mount kashekk if that is on the map, it's their very own unique feature after all , and Elohim could do with a reworking of their starting-place preferences for unique features, greatly favouring "good" ones and especially ones linked to Sirona.

edit: on the sheaim chaos vs fire issue, I think chaos is more fitting to their theme .

edit2: I already love the new changes scheduled for patch L. boy, this mod gets better and better every day.

 

[MaJa]

Only prereqs are Mazatl civ, 12 Wyvern Guardians and inCity (must be in the city you want to found it in).

that still didn't work, all 12 in a city and all 12 in my capitol and nothing .

 

[MaxAstro]

Doviello are Camulos/War/Chaos aren't they?

Doviello are the Force civ, I think. I came to that conclusion through process of ellimination, however, so that might be wrong.

I am pretty sure that the Balseraphs are Chaos, though.

Of course, all of this is mostly just educated guesswork; Magister would know much better than I.

It would be nice if there were a chart linking each civ to it's god and mana type...

 

[xienwolf]

Pretty sure there is one in the trivia thread.

 

[Kael]

Doviello are the Force civ, I think. I came to that conclusion through process of ellimination, however, so that might be wrong.

I am pretty sure that the Balseraphs are Chaos, though.

Of course, all of this is mostly just educated guesswork; Magister would know much better than I.

It would be nice if there were a chart linking each civ to it's god and mana type...

Vehem is right, the Grigori are Force, Doviello are Chaos, Balseraph are Mind.

 

[Skitters]

Lugus- Angel of Light (Sun) - Malakim
Sirona- Angel of Wisdom (Spirit) - Elohim
Bhall- Angel of Fire (Fire) - Clan
Nantosuelta- Angel of Faith (Enchantment) - Luch
Nemed- Angel of Life (Life) - Mercurians/Sidar*
Amathaon- Angel of Fertility (Creation) - Kurios
Junil- Angel of Justice (Law) - Bannor
Arawn- Angel of Death (Death) - Mercurians/Sidar*
Oghma- Angel of Knowledge (Metamagic) - Amurites
Danalin- Angel of the Water (Water) - Lanun
Dagda- Angel of Balance (Force) - Grigori
Kilmorph- Angel of the Earth (Earth) - Khazad
Sucellus- Angel of Growth (Nature) / Cernnunos -Angel of Nature - Ljos
Tali- Angel of the Air (Air) - Hippus
Camulos- Angel of Peace, who would become the Angel of War (Chaos) - Doviello
Aeron- Angel of Strength, who would become the Angel of Rage (Body) - Calabim
Ceridwen- Angel of the Stars, who would become the Angel of Magic (Dimensional) - Sheaim
Mammon- Angel of Foresight, who would become the Angel of Greed (Mind) - Balseraphs
Esus- Angel of Trust, who would become the Angel of Deception (Shadow) - Svart
Mulcarn- Angel of Ice, who would become the Angel of Winter (Winter) - Illians
Agares- Angel of Hope, who would become the Angel of Despair (Entropy) - Infernal

* for some reason I've got the Sidar and Mercurians as both being Death, got a vague memory that the Mercurians turned their back on life or something or other?

Note that it isn't neccessarily the case that a race will start with access to their patron angels mana - the Balseraphs, and Merc/Sidar (whichever is really death, Mec have Life) being examples of this.

 

[Jean Elcard]

Interesting List. Would somebody mind to add the Unique Features to it as well. ;-)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

excellent post, but Balseraphs DO start with mind mana, just checked

 

[xienwolf]

Features, and Patron Animals, and Kylorin's Students, and Archangels

 

[Mailbox]

I know that you two set up a way for promotions to change the look of a unit, but I'm not sure if it will do what I want it to do. Can I give the "Sea Worker" a promotion that changes its graphic to that of a workboat when it goes on sea tiles? It would be a great cosmetic fix for the Sea Workers and help solve one of my great problems with my own modmod.

 

[xienwolf]

We didn't set up the graphical changes, that was a BtS feature But you could make an AutoAcquire MustMaintain bEffectPromo setup to cause the worker to shift to workboat and back again when moving between land/sea tiles. Just make the promotions be valid for all possible water terrains only. You'll also have to define the art styles, probably for every Civ/Artstyle type which already exists. Look at how the Orangutan graphic shift is handled for Archmages. Though the actual shifting of the art is done in Python for that one, so maybe BtS didn't set this up as nicely as hoped for.

 

[orangelex44]

I was wondering, is it possible to just get the FF interface improvements (info @ turn start, improved advisor tabs, etc.) without the gameplay tweaks (new civs, new magic, revamped civs, etc.)?

I'm not a huge fan of some of the new civs (Lizardmen annoy me, with their hissing), but the overall helpfulness of the revamped interface is painful to go without.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

@ orangelex...

I on't raelly like the new civs either (not to be disparaging to you Vehem) but i play Fall Further for all the other things.

If you don't want the civs, play a custom game without them...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I still much prefer the way I had Ice implemented in my version:

Ice 1 = Frost - temporarily turns the caster's tile to tundra or ice.

Ice 2 = summon Frost Giant - only works on Tundra/Ice terrain, Frost Giants are fairly strong Permanent summons with elemental, winterborn, heavy, and vulnerable to fire, and are unable to enter any terrain but Tundra/Ice.

Ice 3 = Blizzard - does a small amount of cold damage to units in surrounding tiles, plus has a chance to turn nearby tiles to ice or snow for a few turns. (I had this one able to turn water tiles to snow temporarily too, but that might be too strong. I would have instead made it make the ice feature in the water, but you can't set TempFeatures like you can Temp Terrains. I created TempFeature and TempImprovement functions once and managed to get it to compile, but I made other changes that broke it before I remembered to test the functions.) It also had a very small chance to destroy ancient/forests/jungles, and a slightly larger chance to demote them to new forests (or just forests, in the case of ancient forests.)



I also really think that Mutation should be replaced with the old Summon Chaos Marauder spell (which summons a marauder with a promotion that gives it a high chance to turn barb. This might need to be a new promotion, as the current enraged one wears off after a battle.) Death magic has never really been appropriate for the Sheaim, while thematically Chaos fit both the Sheaim and the Balseraphs very well. It should be made to fit them batter mechanically, by giving this starting mana of the summoner trait leaders a summon. I really think that Mutation should only be a random, passive chaos mana effect, although I'd be ok with it being a spell tied to OO.

 

[xienwolf]

It is on the design documents to create custom game options which remove certain Civs in the same way that we can remove certain religions. Main reason it hasn't been written yet is I am trying to think of a general template which will automatically create an option for any future Civs added (like Jotnar/Scions).

The ideal is to place another tab in the Custom Game screen, probably right underneath the Victory Conditions, where you can select to deny certain Civilizations. The only direct effect of course would be to prevent using those Civilizations in the Random selection for Civ slots. But the code could be extended to prevent that Civ from ever joining the game (like Basium/Hyborem, or to prevent any offshoot Civ - colony or Minister Koun) from being that Civ.

 

[Mailbox]

We didn't set up the graphical changes, that was a BtS feature But you could make an AutoAcquire MustMaintain bEffectPromo setup to cause the worker to shift to workboat and back again when moving between land/sea tiles. Just make the promotions be valid for all possible water terrains only. You'll also have to define the art styles, probably for every Civ/Artstyle type which already exists. Look at how the Orangutan graphic shift is handled for Archmages. Though the actual shifting of the art is done in Python for that one, so maybe BtS didn't set this up as nicely as hoped for.

I tried:

		<PromotionInfo>		<!-- Boatsman -->			
			<Type>PROMOTION_BOATSMAN</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_BOATSMAN</Description>
			<PromotionPrereq></PromotionPrereq>
			<bAutoAcquire>1</bAutoAcquire>
			<bEffectProm>1</bEffectProm>
			<bMustMaintain>1</bMustMaintain>
			<bNoXP>1</bNoXP>
			<PrereqTerrains>
				<PrereqTerrain>TERRAIN_COAST</PrereqTerrain>
				<PrereqTerrain>TERRAIN_OCEAN</PrereqTerrain>
			</PrereqTerrains>
			<PrereqUnits>
				<PrereqUnit>UNIT_WORKER_SEA</PrereqUnit>
			</PrereqUnits>
			<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/ForestStealth.dds</Button>
			<bWaterWalking>1</bWaterWalking>
			<UnitArtStyleType>UNIT_ARTSTYLE_WORKER_SEA</UnitArtStyleType>
		</PromotionInfo>

with UNIT_ARTSTYLE_WORKER_SEA being defined as:

		<UnitArtStyleTypeInfo>
			<Type>UNIT_ARTSTYLE_WORKER_SEA</Type>
			<StyleUnits>
				<StyleUnit>
					<UnitType>UNIT_WORKER_SEA</UnitType>
					<UnitMeshGroup>
						<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_WORKBOAT</EarlyArtDefineTag>
						<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_WORKBOAT</LateArtDefineTag>
						<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_WORKBOAT</MiddleArtDefineTag>
					</UnitMeshGroup>
				</StyleUnit>
			</StyleUnits>
		</UnitArtStyleTypeInfo>

Now, as I'm reading it, the Sea Worker should gain the promotion on entering water tiles and lose it as it leaves them. This means that the unit should have the original civilization's worker art on land and revert to the generic workboat art when they enter the sea.

However, this configuration is giving me the workboat graphic all the time. I'm guessing I'm missing something simple though.

 

[Vehem]

I was wondering, is it possible to just get the FF interface improvements (info @ turn start, improved advisor tabs, etc.) without the gameplay tweaks (new civs, new magic, revamped civs, etc.)?

I'm not a huge fan of some of the new civs (Lizardmen annoy me, with their hissing), but the overall helpfulness of the revamped interface is painful to go without.

Check this thread out - it's the mod that those changes were based on. It may need a little work to get working though, but probably nothing too heavy. There were a few quirks with it however, though not sure how many of those were due to other changes from the base mod.

FfH BUG

Well, I still much prefer the way I had Ice implemented in my version:

Easy enough to change back - you getting near a release yet? Would love to see how your version works and compare the new spheres...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Easy enough to change back - you getting near a release yet? Would love to see how your version works and compare the new spheres...

No, I've really been too busy to work on it (or to play civ IV at all) since school started back. I've fallen pretty far behind in the class I dropped over the summer once again, and may drop it again.

I was probably less than a week away from releasing it when I stopped working on it, but changes in the main mod and especially in the capabilities of FF have changed some of my goals for the next release. There are some changes you implemented that aren't quite what I was planning but which I think are good enough not to change, at least not much. For instance, I'm thinking that I'll leave the Dimensional spells like you have them instead of making dimensional gates a level 2 spell and adding a teleporting cargo-carrying summon (I think the AI would handle your way better), but I'm still planning to make Dimensional mana require Sorcery or even arcane lore instead of alteration and have them grant duration-granting summon perk promotions. Although I was wanting at least one force spell to represent balance by giving a bonus vs both holy and unholy damage, I'll probably leave that sphere unchanged.

My original plan for Force 3 was basically the same as yours, except that it would work though a temporary Improvement instead of a Building, so it could be cast at strategic locations outside of cities. (I wouldn't want this spell to make a permanent improvement, both because it would be too strong and because it could destroy other important improvements, including Unique Features. I was wanting to make Wall of Stone work though a temporary improvement too.) Could you add the ability to add temporary improvements/features (based on the temp terrain function), please? and maybe make it so that improvements themselves can have level requirements, so both this and the Ring of Carcer won't have to rely on python?







Completely unrelated, but I think it isn't right for Marnok dungeon exploring to give diseased, plagues, etc., promotions to units that are normally immune to them. It also seems odd that it mentions non-living units not returning alive.

 

[Vehem]

Completely unrelated, but I think it isn't right for Marnok dungeon exploring to give diseased, plagues, etc., promotions to units that are normally immune to them. It also seems odd that it mentions non-living units not returning alive.

Aye - that's a fair point. We've been discussing methods for promotion exclusivity (if I have Promotion A, I can't have Promotion B) and that might work nicely here once we decide how to proceed. Alternatively it could just be tidied up in Python a little.