Fall Further - The Original Thread

[woodelf]

More defensive buildings would be cool. This would actually make them useful.

 

[Sarisin]

It almost sounds like the Construction tech is useless for these guys, Siege Workshops too. I agree that jungle, marsh is simply not condusive to developing these units.

Will they be severely hampered by this loss of siege units? Is there an alternative that makes sense? What would a lizard civ research in order to soften up a besieged city? Maybe a slow moving lizard armored to be a battering ram?

Also (again with the also), should any enemy wheeled unit be allowed access to deep jungle or marsh without a trail or road?

Let 'em build the Three Stooges like the elves have to do if they want seige units. Now there is a nifty concept...the Three Stooges Meet the LizardFolk - sounds like a movie I went to see in the 60s.

I hate to say it but 400 turns in, I am still getting those CTDs. No particular event, and a reload allows me to play on.

I am using 020c, and I see there is yet another patch, but I'm not sure there is anything new that would affect the CTDs.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

How much work would it entail to make this possible?

Allowing cities in rival territory is easy (just delete or comment out one if statement), but the change to Homeland would be more difficult. It would either require hardcoding (which Kael is against) or creating a new xml tag and function to read it. I'm sure it is possible and that Kael probably wouldn't have trouble doing it, but it is beyond my limited C++ skills (I never even saw C++ code until a couple of weeks ago)

 

[CyberRoadRunner]

If the mazatl believe in wyverns etc. should they be effected by cult of the dragon?

 

[DuckAndCower]

I hate to say it but 400 turns in, I am still getting those CTDs. No particular event, and a reload allows me to play on.

I am using 020c, and I see there is yet another patch, but I'm not sure there is anything new that would affect the CTDs.

I'm also crashing around 300-400 turns in. I haven't yet run into one of those pre-patch situations where I crash every time I hit end turn (except with the save that I submitted, which still crashes every time on the next turn, but I guess that was to be expected). It's annoying, but at least it doesn't seem to be game breaking anymore.

If I get a save with a reproducible crash, I'll post it.

Oh, I just wanted to say, I like how the Archos and Mazatl kind of have extra goals to use their world spells. For the Archos, you're focusing on cranking your capitals population as high as possible, while with Mazatl you need to make 12 Wyvern Guardians. It gives you something to aim for mid-game, which I think all the other civs are lacking (maybe not the case for the other three FF civs, but definitely true for the vanilla ones). I'd like to see some more of this. It almost reminds me of Rhye's and Falls fun victory conditions.

As for adding little gameplay tweaks in addition to extra civs, I think I'm against it. A reworking of city defense might be nice, but why not just make a "tweak mod" that's compatible with Fall Further, but not completely necessary?

 

[Vehem]

Allowing cities in rival territory is easy (just delete or comment out one if statement), but the change to Homeland would be more difficult. It would either require hardcoding (which Kael is against) or creating a new xml tag and function to read it. I'm sure it is possible and that Kael probably wouldn't have trouble doing it, but it is beyond my limited C++ skills (I never even saw C++ code until a couple of weeks ago)

Cloning it from Stigmata should be easy enough. The only part that would need to change is

            if (GC.getGameINLINE().getGlobalCounter() * getCombatPercentGlobalCounter() / 100 != 0)
            {
                iModifier += GC.getGameINLINE().getGlobalCounter() * getCombatPercentGlobalCounter() / 100;
            }
            if (GC.getGameINLINE().getGlobalCounter() * pAttacker->getCombatPercentGlobalCounter() / 100 != 0)
            {
                iModifier -= GC.getGameINLINE().getGlobalCounter() * pAttacker->getCombatPercentGlobalCounter() / 100;
            }

".getGlobalCounter()" just needs to be replaced by something that finds the current player's % culture on that plot and "getCombatPercentGlobalCounter()" would be "getCombatPercentHomelandCulture()" (returns the value from the XML tag).

As for adding little gameplay tweaks in addition to extra civs, I think I'm against it. A reworking of city defense might be nice, but why not just make a "tweak mod" that's compatible with Fall Further, but not completely necessary?

I suspect a ModModMod may be in the offing.

 

[Sarisin]

Just my opinion, Vehem, as I know you are getting bombarded with a lot of really good ideas, but...

I think you should focus on getting these five civs straightened out first before considering deviating from the FFH2 rules, or whatever. Things are moving mighty fast and I think you should give players a chance to try out some of the new civs first.

Also, I have to say the CTDs are very annoying in that they come after you have invested a bit of time in a game and you hate to abandon it. However, it is that or deal with saving every turn and constantly loading and re-loading.

Personally, the reason I like your modmod so much is the unique additional flavor your civs bring to an already outstanding mod.

But, please, give me a chance to play them a bit before making more changes.

 

[Mailbox]

I'm also getting CtDs from this mod, it's a shame because I really enjoy playing the Mazatl.

 

[Vehem]

I'm also getting CtDs from this mod, it's a shame because I really enjoy playing the Mazatl.

Reproducible, or "fixed" after reloading an autosave? Also - which patch are you on?

Still trying to get to the bottom of this. Patch C fixed what I think was the "worst" one, but there still seems to be some random issue somewhere, related to a late game unit/event.

 

[woodelf]

I'm also getting CtDs from this mod, it's a shame because I really enjoy playing the Mazatl.

Go back to the last autosave, reload. Save right before hitting Enter to end each turn and post the save that comes before the CTD.

 

[Mailbox]

It's reproducible and on patch C. I looked in world builder and noticed that doviello workers were building pirate coves. Also the Cualli were about to finish a warrior in one of their cities after this turn.

 

[Mailbox]

Here's another one, this time on patch D. Hope these help.

 

[Vehem]

It's reproducible and on patch C. I looked in world builder and noticed that doviello workers were building pirate coves. Also the Cualli were about to finish a warrior in one of their cities after this turn.

I've just tried both save-games but unfortunately neither of them produces a CtD for me. Woodelf - do you mind trying them out for me to see if you can get them to crash?

The Pirate-Cove is kinda odd. Did you alter the ImprovementInfo's file during the time you were playing the game? (possibly by patching during gameplay - though I don't think anything was added there). The "Pirate Cove" entry is directly after the "Pasture" entry, so what seems to have happened is that the number for "pasture" decreased by 1 internally, which meant that they actually built a Pasture, but it became a Pirate Cove on reload. They do correctly rebuild over it though, and are constructing Pastures on some Animal resources that I dropped into their lands - so it doesn't seem to be a recurring problem. I'm just curious as to what caused it in this instance.

EDIT: Just went back into the first game and "Skip-turned" for the next 100 turns. No CtDs to be seen. Which is oddly irritating for a change.

 

[Mailbox]

I do have a improvement file update in the modular section, but everything in it checks out and works in the main mod, unless I need to add swamps to it (which I wouldn't think is the case since it just adds and overwrites those entries). Strange that you don't have the crashes, I've have to check all my settings and try again.

 

[Vehem]

I do have a improvement file update in the modular section, but everything in it checks out and works in the main mod, unless I need to add swamps to it (which I wouldn't think is the case since it just adds and overwrites those entries). Strange that you don't have the crashes, I've have to check all my settings and try again.

Can you post that module for me so I can take a look at what it's doing? It does sound a likely cause though, as I've added exactly 1 new improvement and the Pasture appears to be 1 Improvement-Value too far down.

Do they habitually create new Pirate Coves for you, or is it just that one that is currently on the Sheep? (they built a Pasture over it a few turns later on mine)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Quick poll time - who'd rather see FF remain as purely "Civs Only", and who'd like to see a few other alterations? (I wouldn't be changing anything too drastically - but things like Cultural Defenses would be a good place to start).

I wouldnt mind seeing a few changes, provided everyone intersted agreed thats also the reason i dont play magesters mod, its got too many things in it

I think WHFB tried morale, but I don't know how far they got. I agree that would be a better solution.

We did, but then our programmer got in a huff and went for a sulk so it was never finished. i think it was working nicely though. the code has been lost since then i think...

 

[Mailbox]

Ha! You're right, for some reason the pastures convert to pirate harbors after one turn. I'll go in and adjust some stuff and see if that solves my problem.

 

[Vehem]

We did, but then our programmer got in a huff and went for a sulk so it was never finished. i think it was working nicely though. the code has been lost since then i think...

Out of curiosity - what was the "mechanic" for it? I'm not finding the programming side of things too tricky on the whole, more the "what should it actually do" when it comes to Morale.

If it's something that works nicely in-game, it'd certainly make for a good side-mod (plus you'd get to use it too ).

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah, the modules for improvements that upgrade flat out fail The lines which are important for upgrade timers and next level of improvement associate numerically instead of with the type they are entered into. Hence any changes to the start of the improvements file will cause problems with those modules.

Vehem, if you could move any changes you made in the ImprovementInfos.xml to the end of the file instead of the beginning that would clear the issue up for anybody who uses the Modular FfH in conjunction with Fall Further. Same issue will happen if you put any promotions which have pre-reqs or combatapplies in the beginning of the PromotionInfos.xml, my modules which have no requirements will overwrite the fields stating that there are requirements

Actually, now that I am thinking about it again, I can probably re-organize the modules to contain fewer than 4 improvements & dodge the cottage problem and avoid the work-around which I am currently using. But it would still cause problems for any other mod-mod which added new material that uses those fields which fail in modules to the beginning of the files instead of the end of them.

 

[Mailbox]

Yeah, since swamps are after farms it is a whole mess of trouble. In other news, fixing that is pretty easy and I'm not getting CtDs anymore.

I learned that the Archos are total monsters.