Fall Further - The Original Thread

[MagisterCultuum]

You could try going back to requiring the shrines of the respective religions.

 

[Tarquelne]

just faking it with a Haruspex-only version of Spell Extension (should look indistinguishable from the original if I do it right).

2 spiders would help a lot... 1/2 the time to get to the desired swarm size is a big difference. But I'd prefer a 10 turn delay sacrifice-the-caster-and-explode-into-40-spiders version. Just to hear my LAN opponent yell. You can make the game show them fountaining into the air when the caster bursts, right?

Assuming non-bursting Haruspex, you could also have them start with SE I. Though I think needing Feral Rage for the +1 move is fine.

...Empyrean/Esus had been founded already before anyone could join the councils.

That would be much better.

I didn't like needing the Emp/Esus Shrines for the councils - I like the councils too much to enjoy hoping the founder gets around to creating them - but maybe a minor, cheap, wonder for each that doesn't require a GP? (Available at Honor/Deception but not requiring the Holy City, so non-founders can get in on the fun?)

 

[Y T]

I dont understand the fuzz. Babyspiders r just cannonfodder, never to b handled alone, they're the first to dispatch. If they get just a promo, good enough, if they upgrade to an adult, thats the real stuff, later on the nest surely has reached size 10 after the starting phase!
Giant spiders with meager promos r more a prob in advancing games, with hunters/rangers being very common, I mostly keep the spiders in the backline, never alone, to pick out neutrals/easy targets until they're strong enough to play at the front!
I must admit quick players might see a prob there, but dont they do with different aspects of the game?!

After all, we're speaking here about free units!

 

[Slvynn]

I agree with GhostQ that somewhere early in game Arcos dont make it with other barb civs. Yes they need buff, not big, but they need it.
Giving to Harus ability to summon bunch + mob promos will fix bit a prob but they need .. yeah , may be that additional trait you talked about. And may be pillaging ability with Feral for spiders. Its very hard to level and grow (veeeeery hard) BS's and i delete them normally too , as well.

 

[GhostQ]

That one I'll have to concede. "Defensive" was originally due to the theory that they were "defending the nest", but their actual play-style has ended up with them being more aggressive anyway. I may have to devise a new trait altogether for Daracaat - probably something animal/spider-boosting. "Wild" sounds like a good name...

Hmm, Vehem, how about saving yourself all the trouble to balance a new trait and give them Aggressive? Or maybe create a "Wild" trait that gives +1 moves and Pillage ability to spiders and Combat I to recon units? And perhaps double production speed of Dark Weald? Could try to think of more stuff if you want any more opinions on the subject.

 

[Niveras]

Hmm, Vehem, how about saving yourself all the trouble to balance a new trait and give them Aggressive? Or maybe create a "Wild" trait that gives +1 moves and Pillage ability to spiders and Combat I to recon units? And perhaps double production speed of Dark Weald? Could try to think of more stuff if you want any more opinions on the subject.

I was thinking: Animals gain the ability to pillage, and pillaging gives experience equal to half the base value of gold (so half of whatever gold you'd get if you didn't have the raider trait or conquest civic). Then allow baby spiders to automatically grow, if they do not already, at maybe 20 experience, in addition to a chance after successful combat.

Of course, this is way more work than just creating a new Aggressive trait for recon units, which may be enough alone.

 

[CMHistory]

I was thinking: Animals gain the ability to pillage, and pillaging gives experience equal to half the base value of gold (so half of whatever gold you'd get if you didn't have the raider trait or conquest civic). Then allow baby spiders to automatically grow, if they do not already, at maybe 20 experience, in addition to a chance after successful combat.

Of course, this is way more work than just creating a new Aggressive trait for recon units, which may be enough alone.

I like this idea for the Archos....to be fair, I don't usually play them much, but the idea that they would send their baby spiders into neighboring villages to rampage and feast in order to get big and strong is virtually ideal. Of course, they would have to sacrifice the gold they would gain altogether (animals don't carry bags of cash all that often), and the experience gain would have to be carefully balanced. If this can be pulled off with a leader trait, so much the better/easier!

 

[Vehem]

but the idea that they would send their baby spiders into neighboring villages to rampage and feast in order to get big and strong

There's something about invisible, hidden nationality pillaging units that gain free XP from it and then automatically upgrade to a stronger unit that just seems "too much". Any AI civ that doesn't maintain troops from the recon line (and there are quite a few which don't) would be crippled by that. The spiders are already pretty good at slowing enemy expansion simply by targeting un-escorted workers or even a settler party if you're feeling ambitious (these almost always are escorted).

===

A simpler option may just be to have Baby Spiders with a very small chance per turn to mature without needing combat, or to raise the chance from combat a little.

 

[Slvynn]

A simpler option may just be to have Baby Spiders with a very small chance per turn to mature without needing combat, or to raise the chance from combat a little.

i think just this will do the thing, altogether with leader trait and harus spells buff

 

[MaxAstro]

Couple bugs, not sure if either of these have been reported before: The Archos' starting Baby Spider doesn't have Hidden Nationality, not sure if their nest spiders do or not.

Also, happiness from features seems to be broken. The Remnants of Patria, Tomb of Sucellus, etc. all do not provide happiness in nearby cities. Testing shows that if you make a feature that provides UNhappiness in nearby cities, that works fine.

 

[Vehem]

Couple bugs, not sure if either of these have been reported before: The Archos' starting Baby Spider doesn't have Hidden Nationality, not sure if their nest spiders do or not.

The nest ones did, I granted them it explicitly in Python when the animal hidden nationality was altered. I've also given spiders (and spiders only) HN as a FreePromotion again in the XML (wanted to see what the reason was that Kael shifted it to being auto-granted rather than FreePromotion was - didn't want to conflict with it until I understood it). The first one(s - they get 2 now) will have HN as of next version.

 

[Vehem]

I've just play tested the Archos again - took 150 turns (Normal Speed, Emperor) to conquer my continent (Hippus and Luichurp both destroyed). This opened up large areas of land for free expansion as I'd maintained peace with the Barbarians. I actually expanded more slowly than I could have as I didn't know what the next player's score was and didn't want to risk Barbarian war (Raging Barbs, Orthus and Acheron nearby, Fire ellies released from Pyre - would have become messy).

In the initial 150 turns however, my science rate was minimal. I'd only built farms, wineries and pastures, hadn't researched education and had zoomed off down the recon line as soon as I'd hooked up the nearby resources. I had a single golden age when the Pyre was destroyed, but this had only a small impact as I wasn't producing massive amounts of commerce anyway. Around turn 165 I reached Animal Handling and started producing Strength 8 Recluses/Upgrading my Huntsmen (there were 6 Combat3-5 Huntsmen that survived the Hippus war, which formed the core of the Recluses). At turn 180 I called it done for the time being and checked on the other Civs/Scores (Ctrl-Z in debug mode). I was in close second behind a Sidar civ that had spawned on a large island to itself and substantially ahead of both the Bannor and the Clan who were on the other continent.

===

Current tweaks to the Archos;

• Mother's nest provides +10% research (cancels out Barbarian penalty in capital only)
• Mother's nest allows 2 priests
• Archos priests generate 1 science (Spider cult driving progress rather than sages)
• Daracaat is Aggressive instead of Defender
• Baby spider maturation rate doubled (40% chance after combat instead of 20%)

A knock-on effect of the early priest specialists is early Great Prophets. I had 2 natural and 1 event granted Great Prophets and as I had no intention of following a religious line further than founding/adopting it (I was going to head for FoL) I settled all 3 of them in Anta for +6 Hammers and +15 Gold per turn (which really helped maintain the swarm of Huntsmen).

Equally - if you wanted to follow a religious line (I know Slyvnn was keen on this), they can be used to lightbulb techs that may otherwise be too lengthy to research.

===

At the end of the 180-ish turns played, I'd say the Archos could have destroyed any of the civs still in play, if not for the water/mountains in the way.

I'd also have to say if you're trying to generate large amounts of beakers to rush a religion/hero - you're playing them the wrong way. Played in the manner described above, they're definitely very potent. I know that certain rules are sometimes followed in MP games (anti-rush etc), but that happens to be the way the Archos work best - highly aggressive and zerglike.

 

[Slvynn]

awesome tweaks, thats waht i am expexted - resereach boost , some priest stuff. Again, at end good results. Btw archos is very very unique race with such priests. Real favor play. Ima feel satisfyed and calm about Archos being balanced and potent civ, in right hands not less potent that famous recon Svart.

 

[woodelf]

Continued great stuff Vehem.

Any chance you'd want to add an option to double or quadruple mana nodes? I never have enough.

 

[Ekolite]

Meh. I only ever need 5 mana nodes. Two for fire, two for air, and a metamagic one which later becomes death. Easy. Archos stuff looks great vehem! Interesting idea being able to start off with 2 priests, very early prophets. Very original.

 

[Falc]

Is it just me or is the Explorable Lairs part not working in release 33?

 

[Love]

It is just you.

 

[hbar]

Is it just me or is the Explorable Lairs part not working in release 33?

Actually, I just installed it and played my first game of FF (at least since the .30's), and the explorable lairs were most definately not working. I installed FF over Marnok's mod, if that would make a difference.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Its working fine for me. Of course, I don't think it is updated to the latest version of Explorable Lairs. We really need to convince Vehem to update to the latest versions of all the modmods he has included, especially xienwolf's xml modcomp. Then he can get around to adding UnitStats and FFHBUG (so I can steal his DLL for my modmod)

Edit: well, it works for lairs but not tribal villages. Was that how explorable lairs was several versions back? I don't remember.

 

[hbar]

well, it works for lairs but not tribal villages. Was that how explorable lairs was several versions back? I don't remember.

In the game I just finished, it didn't work for villiages or animal lairs, but I didn't come across any skelly/lizzie lairs. Maybe those are the only explorable ones now?

Any idea how badly I'd break things if I installed MarnokMod on top of Fall Further? I really like the absolute chaos of the first 100 turns or so, even if a pit beast or two show up