Fall Patch changes discussion thread

[peterka]

Anyone knows what will be the commerce tree finisher, now than 2x gold from missions is moved to entrepreneurship ? just +1 Gold from every Trading Post ?

 

[Loucypher]

Are the AI's more aggressive in the patch? In an Emperor level test game last night, where I spawned on an island with Wu and Wilhelm I was clobbered by a flood of Swedish units and as I was beating them back, he allied with Tyre who then instantly came at me with several units. Later I was jumped upon from the other side by a horde of Chinese units.

Lesson learned.. Civ 5 is a war game. I had some units, but just not enough of them.

They are more aggressive. BUT, they are not on Gods & Kings level aggression (Which is a good thing, mind you)
If I were to put G&K Aggression at a 10 on the Aggression scale and BNW as a 1, I think with this patch, they fall around the 4/5. I've seen a handful more Ancient/Classical wars (I play 18 player maps, mind), and come medieval I've seen a LOT more. Interestingly, in my last game most warmongers kept up pretty well with the score (That's to say, Shaka, Boudicca and Ashurbanipal did, Alexander was in the lower end of the middle pack, and Montezuma was eradicated by Assyria + Zulu one-two punch), while more peaceful players are also at the bottom of the pack (Pacal only had two cities)
Also surprising, Shaka had only built 4 cities by the time I founded my 5th.

 

[Light Cleric]

They are more aggressive. BUT, they are not on Gods & Kings level aggression (Which is a good thing, mind you)
If I were to put G&K Aggression at a 10 on the Aggression scale and BNW as a 1, I think with this patch, they fall around the 4/5. I've seen a handful more Ancient/Classical wars (I play 18 player maps, mind), and come medieval I've seen a LOT more. Interestingly, in my last game most warmongers kept up pretty well with the score (That's to say, Shaka, Boudicca and Ashurbanipal did, Alexander was in the lower end of the middle pack, and Montezuma was eradicated by Assyria + Zulu one-two punch), while more peaceful players are also at the bottom of the pack (Pacal only had two cities)
Also surprising, Shaka had only built 4 cities by the time I founded my 5th.

This actually sounds like a good balance. I wasn't a big fan of the psychotic G&K AI but I would still prefer it to the current AI which almost NEVER attacks you. It's kind of silly that you can get up 4 cities wherever you want on Deity without ever having to build a military unit.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Anyone knows what will be the commerce tree finisher, now than 2x gold from missions is moved to entrepreneurship ? just +1 Gold from every Trading Post ?

Probably... That is a big benefit (it also lets you buy Great Merchants with Faith)

 

[SYahoo]

The biggest drawback of the Japan UU building fishing boats is the fact that by the time you unlock samurai you would 99% of the time have your work boats built.

 

[Alziel]

The biggest drawback of the Japan UU building fishing boats is the fact that by the time you unlock samurai you would 99% of the time have your work boats built.

It can be pretty useful if you've just taken an enemy coastal city with an army that includes Samurai though - if the sea resources have been pillaged or are not yet developed. (Particularly if you've made it a puppet and it's miles away from a city that can produce work boats)

Also - who's to say that an isolationist Japanese player will even bother to get work boats before they get their Samurai? This change now makes that a viable choice for Japan.

 

[fyar]

Anyone knows what will be the commerce tree finisher, now than 2x gold from missions is moved to entrepreneurship ? just +1 Gold from every Trading Post ?

I think the real finisher is Protectionism's +2 per luxury. Since it's always the last policy anyway, it seems plenty strong already to overcome the weakness of the finisher.

 

[Cromagnus]

"Tourism: Further Benefits from Tourism when Influential with another Civ
Science (from Trade Routes)
Familiar: +1 Science per trade route
Popular: +2 Science per trade route
Influential: +3 Science per trade route
Dominant: +4 Science per trade route"

This will significantly help CV strategies that don't rely entirely on focusing on Science. If you focus on Tourism early, you tend to stall out on science, especially on Deity.

It may also make it more possible for AIs to achieve CV, something I'm not even sure is possible right now.

"Spaceflight Pioneers: Remove +10 Science in Capital; add free Great Engineer and Great Scientist instead."

Wow, this is good. This makes Order hard to compete with IMHO.

"Civ-Specific Balance
Japan: Give Japan an Ocean start bias
Japan: Japan: Samurai can build fishing boats.
Japan: Bushido has a new additional effect: +1 Culture from fishing boats and +2 Culture from atolls.
Japan: Zero no longer requires Oil"

This makes Japan very intriguing for Continents and Archipelago maps.

"Congress: Made Diplo Victory more difficult by increasing the delegates needed to win (2 more on Duel, 7 more on Standard, 9 more on Huge)"

Yay! This was sorely needed.

"3 New Pantheons
Earth Mother: +1 Faith from Copper, Iron, and Salt.
God-King: +1 Culture, Faith, Gold, Production, and Science from the Palace
Sun God: +1 Food from Bananas, Citrus, and Wheat"

This is great. Copper was kind of the worst luxury. Although did Salt starts really need a boost?

God-King will be good for OCC. Sun God will be very powerful... population explosion!!

"Great Admirals now have a "Change Port" command."

Good! This was very annoying having your admirals spawn half a world away.

"Fix a legacy bug that prevented the AI from ever putting together offers for a luxury that a human player now has available for trade."

Finally!!!

"Military AI: Civs with very high FLAVOR_OFFENSE settings (7+) will buy military units with spare gold more frequently. Will boost the number of early attacks we see, especially on high difficulties."

Rut-roh!
More thoughts later, but so far very intriguing!

 

[Lorf Yimzo]

I believe someone already made a discussion thread on the patch. You should have posted this there.

 

[Cromagnus]

EDIT: Post no longer relevant after thread merge.

 

[Txurce]

I just noticed that Pottery was 12 turns to research, rather than 10. Is that an intended change?

 

[whyidie]

I think the real finisher is Protectionism's +2 per luxury. Since it's always the last policy anyway, it seems plenty strong already to overcome the weakness of the finisher.

Definitely. That one policy alone can make the entire tree worthwhile in the right situations.

 

[Pysces]

Any Deity players noticing significantly more crowding in the early games?

I've run through 6-7 openings now, and i've consistently had to fight for decent spots more then I ever had before. Its not that the AI is settling more cities, but that the theory being with the AI's new incentive to settle stronger spots, they are choosing prime spots closer to my capital.

Curious.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It can be pretty useful if you've just taken an enemy coastal city with an army that includes Samurai though - if the sea resources have been pillaged or are not yet developed. (Particularly if you've made it a puppet and it's miles away from a city that can produce work boats)

Also - who's to say that an isolationist Japanese player will even bother to get work boats before they get their Samurai? This change now makes that a viable choice for Japan.

The Samurai have to be able to embark if they wish to build fishing boats, which means that they have to have Sailing which unlocks Work Boats anyway. And who would play as Japan, which now gives Culture for Fishing Boats, and not want to take advantage of that aspect of the UA as early as possible?

 

[Browd]

Actually, to embark they also need Optics.

In any event, it is a long time before you get Samurai, so, yes, get relatively early Sailing for culture-giving workboats in your initial cities and later, when your Samurai are spearheading your "puppet thy neighbor" campaign, they can spam fishing boats in your newly-conquered puppets.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Actually, to embark they also need Optics.

In any event, it is a long time before you get Samurai, so, yes, get relatively early Sailing for culture-giving workboats in your initial cities and later, when your Samurai are spearheading your "puppet thy neighbor" campaign, they can spam fishing boats in your newly-conquered puppets.

Right. Unfortunately that's a fairly token ability that assumes the tile was either pillaged or never improved in the first place. I guess it gives you a bigger excuse to pillage sea tiles since it's easy to improve them again.

Additionally, it saves you a few turns of production or some gold later when you unlock Refrigeration. You can use a non-upgraded Samurai to make Oil Platforms at sea.

All in all, the Samurai fishing ability is not particularly noteworthy unlike the culture for Fishing Boats/Atolls addition to the UA, which I feel will be the strongest buff for Japan here.

 

[Yzman]

Would Japan now get tourism from fishing boats/atolls as well once they do a hotel/airport? I am assuming yes.

 

[whyidie]

Right. Unfortunately that's a fairly token ability that assumes the tile was either pillaged or never improved in the first place. I guess it gives you a bigger excuse to pillage sea tiles since it's easy to improve them again.

Additionally, it saves you a few turns of production or some gold later when you unlock Refrigeration. You can use a non-upgraded Samurai to make Oil Platforms at sea.

All in all, the Samurai fishing ability is not particularly noteworthy unlike the culture for Fishing Boats/Atolls addition to the UA, which I feel will be the strongest buff for Japan here.

Agreed, only comment is that you can not use Samurai to make Oil Platforms. As I learned today, fishing boats vs Oil Platforms are two distinct actions, the Samurai has only the former.

 

[Alziel]

The Samurai have to be able to embark if they wish to build fishing boats, which means that they have to have Sailing which unlocks Work Boats anyway. And who would play as Japan, which now gives Culture for Fishing Boats, and not want to take advantage of that aspect of the UA as early as possible?

The immortal word 'D'oh!' springs to mind! I should have thought that one through a bit.

 

[Browd]

Would Japan now get tourism from fishing boats/atolls as well once they do a hotel/airport? I am assuming yes.

Both Hotels and Airports give "Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Improvements (Landmarks, Moai, Chateau)" so I would assume not (fishing boats are improvements, but not on this list).

But this cries out for a test. Anyone?