Fall Patch changes discussion thread

[kaspergm]

Sun King pantheon is a bit OP?

Situational anything does not equal OP.

Problem is that Wheat doesn't need a boost. You get Wheat on plains and on desert tiles, and neither regular flatland starts nor desert starts need a boost. Extra food on Citrus and Bananas is fine, because you get these two resources in Jungles, and Jungle starts are second worst only to Tundra starts. But Wheat should definitely be left out.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Does AI Japan use the Samurai to improve sea resources? In my testing I have found thst neither the legion nor conquistador will use the special worker/settle abilities when played by AI. I hate when an AI does not use all the elements of a unit that a human does. Has anyone seen AN AI legion build a road?

 

[sendos]

Just finished my beta Inca game on King difficulty, I can say that aestethics policy is perfect now. Its 5th policy used to be crap, but now it is decent. Having a trade route and/or open doors can negate the ideological differences completely. Culture victory is a bit easier to attain, which is nice.

Other things to note:
- the civs in my game were barely aggressive in terms of religion. Half of the religions were founded in the medieval era of my game. Perhaps that's just my personal experience but it's the first time the civs in my game weren't so aggressive with religion.
- Although diplomatic victory is harder, it is still attainable. I also had to contest with the Greeks in terms of maintaining CS allies.

 

[funkymunky]

Something that hasn't seen much discussion yet is the new role of Landschnects. Being available to all civs and being almost as cheap as a warrior to purchase, they seem like they'd be incredibly handy for the quick conquest of a neighbour. In my last game I went for a Tradition/Commerce hybrid, rushing Civil Service and timing the Oracle to get Mercenary Army as soon as I enter the medieval age. Had a pretty lucrative start, so after trade routes and the Commerce bonus I was earning about 75 gpt, which on Standard is basically a Landschnect every 3 turns. I had about 700 gold saved up for this gambit, so even with only a Composite Bowman or two, I was immediately in a good position to overwhelm my neighbour Persia.

I wasn't even aiming for a domination victory, but I imagine an optimised build with something like China (Paper Makers and GGs) or Venice (drowning in Gold) would possibly be quite overpowered, if you made the best use of Landschnects.

I haven't got far enough to test this yet, but if they promote to Lancers (and depending on whether they obselete like Pikemen) the window could be much larger to execute this strategy.

Yeah, I don't think I like this change. I don't understand the logic of having an SP give the ability to buy some special new unit when one can already buy just about any unit already through normal game mechanics, so what's the point, other than seeming to disrupt the game balance that already existed?

Why did they mess with the Commerce SP tree anyways, when so many people are complaining about the Honor tree (and even Piety)? Why didn't they help out Honor with some maintenance cost or happiness help. As it is, it's practically impossible to keep a decent military in the early game and still have a balanced treasury, unless you're lucky enough to get a religion (which isn't always guaranteed) with $ tenets, or get a good resource start that you can sell for gold.

 

[Resipsa]

Has anyone used the new gunboat diplomacy yet? What are the mechanics of army strength and nearby army

 

[Barathor]

Yeah, I don't think I like this change. I don't understand the logic of having an SP give the ability to buy some special new unit when one can already buy just about any unit already through normal game mechanics, so what's the point?

They're extremely cheap.

Also, with only one more policy in the Commerce tree, you can even reduce the cost further so that they're cheaper than warriors! (Standard = 160g)

If that wasn't enough, they also pillage without expending movement points, get double the gold from plundering a city, and they can charge into battle the very turn you buy them. Oh, and they have the bonus vs. mounted units that the regular pikemen have too.

They can easily pay for their initial cost through their abilities. (Though, don't forget, maintenance costs are still adding up on them.)

Also, all you need is a single city near the enemy and you can have landsknechts swarming out of it like a beehive in a single turn.

Even if they start to get relatively weaker from enemy tech advances, they're still useful as kamikaze troops to wreak destruction, create blocks, and to soak up enemy attacks.

If you happen to have a lot horses, you can also have an army of lancers once you tech to it. Though, I prefer to send most of them out to die in combat if I have a lot and I only upgrade a few. Due to the landsknechts cheap cost, you'll have to pay much more gold to make up the production cost difference between landsknechts and lancers. Though, they're instant gold troops, so you should always have just as much as you need anyway and buy them on demand.

I used them in my Portugal game with great success. With my fat trade routes and religion, I was raking in gold, and zerged my neighbors out of nowhere. I played relatively peaceful before that while building my fortune and had a slightly below average military. So, be wary during this time period if you see any Commerce civs with a heap of gold!

- - - - - -

The only complaint I have against landsknechts is that they make that silly swinging weapons noise way too much. It sounds like I'm watching a cheesy kung fu movie.

 

[Resipsa]

If you happen to have a lot horses, you can also have an army of lancers once you tech to it. Though, I prefer to send most of them out to die in combat if I have a lot and I only upgrade a few. Due to the landsknechts cheap cost, you'll have to pay much more gold to make up the production cost difference between landsknechts and lancers. Though, they're instant gold troops, so you should always have just as much as you need anyway and buy them on demand.

Its a 220 upgrade on standard speed

 

[Barathor]

Its a 220 upgrade on standard speed

Hmm... I believe it's 290.

I actually created an old mod to tweak the way landsknechts are upgraded and the possibly overlooked drawback:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=112515128

But, now, with the changes to the landsknecht, I think it's fine. Before, it was just a plain ol' cheap unit and I thought it deserved the standard upgrade cost.

- - - - - -

If you're talking about the rush buy cost, yes, I believe it's 220. But, as said, after you take Mercantilism, the cost becomes even lower at 160.

 

[Resipsa]

Hmm... I believe it's 290.

I actually created an old mod to tweak the way landsknechts are upgraded and the possibly overlooked drawback:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=112515128

But, now, with the changes to the landsknecht, I think it's fine. Before, it was just a plain ol' cheap unit and I thought it deserved the standard upgrade cost.

- - - - - -

If you're talking about the rush buy cost, yes, I believe it's 220. But, as said, after you take Mercantilism, the cost becomes even lower at 160.

Crap you are right it is 290 not 220, now that you reminded me. Last night I upgraded a few to test out the tweaked version of gunboat diplomacy. I don't know why I said 220.

 

[Quineloe]

I'm really digging buy rushing 4-5 landsknechte in a city with Heroic epic and armory, then upgrading those to winged hussars. All in one turn. It's actually cheaper than directly buying winged hussars and you can use the heroic epic multiple times.

 

[Browd]

Crap you are right it is 290 not 220, now that you reminded me. Last night I upgraded a few to test out the tweaked version of gunboat diplomacy. I don't know why I said 220.

IIRC, 220 is the normal upgrade cost from pikeman to lancer. That's probably why that number got stuck in your head.

 

[Gamewizard]

In my German game, I went full honor before going into commerce for the landsknechts. I took the policy after it as well, and built big ben (soon after I went into autocracy, but I can't remember if there is a tenant to buy units cheaper...). I was able to buy them for 80 gold a piece, and since I had saved about 1500 gold, I rush bought 20 of them in one turn and completely overwhelmed Rome who was already touting muskets. I was also making about 150 gpt, plus each unit I killed I got more gold from honor's finisher, so I was able to buy atleast 2 more per turn afterwards. Honor's professional army allows you to upgrade them to lancers for about 200 gold a piece, which is nothing after all the gold you get from pillaging tiles, capturing cities, destroying units, and bullying CS. There is a small window of uselessness after the others discover rifling, but once you get anti-tank guns (and a little later choppers) it is back to full on world domination.

IMO, from my one game using it combined with honor, it is completely OP, but extremely fun nonetheless. I do urge everyone to give it a try before they nerf it.

 

[ToodleElNoodos]

Piety is still weak. Mainly because it focuses heavily on shrines and temples, and these are still a terrible way of generating faith, because they are guaranteed to bankrupt you with their obscene maintenance cost. I feel like rather than increasing the % gold from theocracy, it should reduce/remove maintenance (and be available as a second pick).

This! Even something such as:

Add to Mandate of Heaven: "No maintenance for religious buildings in the capital and holy city."
Coz...seriously...money!

And to address another problematic SP...

Add to Religious Tolerance: "Always retain your own pantheon effect."

I figured this SP is meant more for "funsies" in cities bordering other civs, but adding this effect to make it more of a "protect your religion" type of SP. It doesn't completely solve this SP, but at least it gives something to civs who went Piety, but completely lost the religion game.

 

[parts]

Nothing constructive to add, but - thanks for this Firaxis. Great game and I'm really appreciating that now, even now, 3 years since release, y'all still working on it. Fair play.

I'm really just saying this because in contrast with Creative Assembly's R2:TW, which is a godawful piece of work... I dunno, you guys should give them developer tuition in ethics or something. Cheers.

(please resume discussing)

 

[joncnunn]

On Piety and maintenance of Temples: If you complete the tree, you get a gold bonus in cities with Temples. In the case of the capital (or whichever one you are running all your cargo ship external trade routes from), it should provide enough gold to offset the cost of all your maintenance religious buildings in your empire.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Kinda haven't been following Civ for a while:

1. When is this fall patch coming?

2. When are these DLCs coming?

 

[cpm4001]

Kinda haven't been following Civ for a while:

1. When is this fall patch coming?

2. When are these DLCs coming?

1. We don't know.

2. We don't know.

...yeah, we're really up-to-speed around here...

 

[SnowKomodo]

I hope it's soon. I have this weird thing where I just can't enjoy civ when I know there is new stuff that changes the mechanics and the way you play

Like, when BNW was about to come out I didn't play Civ at all for months

 

[cpm4001]

Yeah, same for me - I've played a bit with the beta builds of the patch, but I don't want to start a big game until the patch comes out. Ah well, it'll probably be released before the winter solstice, anyway.

 

[Jaybe]

I hope it's soon. I have this weird thing where I just can't enjoy civ when I know there is new stuff that changes the mechanics and the way you play

Like, when BNW was about to come out I didn't play Civ at all for months

Each game is different: If the rules haven't changed, the geography and geopolitics have. It's called replayability, and is the magic of civ.

When the rules DO change, there is the added appeal of relearning how the dynamics work.